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Thread started 03 Mar 2012 (Saturday) 23:22
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POLL: "Do you believe the 1-series lines have actually been merged?"
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Do you believe Canon ACTUALLY merged the 1D and 1Ds line?

 
Lowner
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Mar 05, 2012 07:40 |  #46

Jon_Doh wrote in post #14026577 (external link)
Canon said themselves that they merged the two lines. But that's not to say there isn't a higher mp different camera that's coming out later this year.

I'd say just "later". Later this year might be too soon given the Japanese problems. What they end up calling it (to save "face") I'm not bothered about in the slightest. So its the 3D, 1Dz or whatever.


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bobbyz
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Mar 05, 2012 09:12 |  #47

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #14021352 (external link)
A 1.4X TC accomplishes the same thing for a lot less money. And, with cleaner ISOs, the loss of one stop is rendered meaningless.

Doesn't gets you that aperture which is really important for sports.. Birds etc I agree but then who is to say I am not putting 1.4xTC on my supertele when materd to 1.3x crop 1d series. And I bet almost 90% of the bird shooters do same.


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Shadowblade
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Mar 05, 2012 15:17 |  #48

Jon_Doh wrote in post #14026577 (external link)
Canon said themselves that they merged the two lines. But that's not to say there isn't a higher mp different camera that's coming out later this year.

That's the key point.

It depends whether you define 'merged the two lines' simply as that there will now only be one camera called the 1D - a high-speed, low-resolution action camera - or whether you define it more broadly as, 'there will no longer be a high-resolution camera with professional features, like the 1Ds, no matter the name.' Nomenclature vs function.




  
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jayadeff
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Mar 05, 2012 17:46 |  #49

I think that most high-end (Canon) shooters who needed the best image quality ended up going with the 5DMkII instead of the 1DsMkIII because it was a lot cheaper and smaller/lighter. The 5DMkII has become so ubiquitous at weddings and fashion shoots, I think it killed the 1Ds. So, why should Canon put R&D money into a new 1Ds if they won't sell? It would make more sense to put a high Mp sensor into the 5DMkIII body, drop the frame rate, and make it their flag-ship high resolution camera for a reasonable price. Keep the 1D line for photo-journalism where photographers need speed, low noise, and built-like-a-tank durability.

I think Canon considers the crop-sensor bodies more for budget shooters, and not for the added "reach".




  
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KAS
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Mar 05, 2012 20:49 |  #50

Shadowblade wrote in post #14029503 (external link)
That's the key point.

It depends whether you define 'merged the two lines' simply as that there will now only be one camera called the 1D - a high-speed, low-resolution action camera - or whether you define it more broadly as, 'there will no longer be a high-resolution camera with professional features, like the 1Ds, no matter the name.' Nomenclature vs function.

My initial intention was to imply a 1Ds in terms of function. I should have made this distinction clearer.

...So, if we define the "1Ds successor" in terms of its functional similarity to the current 1Ds3, I still think we have yet to see something from Canon.

On a side note...we still haven't seen any solid specs on the EOS-C camera that was passively announced as "in development" when the C300 cinema camera was announced. Could this be the 1Ds3 successor?


1Ds MkIII, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 16-35 f/2.8L II, EF 100mm F/2.8, EF 35 f/1.4L, EF 50 f/1.2L, EF 85 f/1.2L II)

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Shadowblade
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Mar 05, 2012 20:56 |  #51

KAS wrote in post #14031951 (external link)
My initial intention was to imply a 1Ds in terms of function. I should have made this distinction clearer.

...So, if we define the "1Ds successor" in terms of its functional similarity to the current 1Ds3, I still think we have yet to see something from Canon.

On a side note...we still haven't seen any solid specs on the EOS-C camera that was passively announced as "in development" when the C300 cinema camera was announced. Could this be the 1Ds3 successor?

I doubt it. No-one bought the 1Ds3 as a video camera. The people who bought the 1Ds3 for its still capabilities (i.e. all of them) won't be interested in upgrading to a C-series video camera for its video capabilities, unless it also happens to surpass all other full-frame DSLRs in still image quality.

I suspect the new C-series camera will be to the C300 what the 5D2 was to the 1Ds3.




  
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KAS
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Mar 05, 2012 21:05 |  #52

Shadowblade wrote in post #14031987 (external link)
I doubt it. No-one bought the 1Ds3 as a video camera. The people who bought the 1Ds3 for its still capabilities (i.e. all of them) won't be interested in upgrading to a C-series video camera for its video capabilities, unless it also happens to surpass all other full-frame DSLRs in still image quality.

I suspect the new C-series camera will be to the C300 what the 5D2 was to the 1Ds3.

...i.e., it'll make people think that Canon shot themselves in the foot with it? :P

That's the thing. There seems to be the perception that Canon is moving away from the highly specialised lines with little overlap and instead towards more integrated bodies that "do it all". It remains possible that the so-called c-series DSLR does incredible still images (as one would expect from a 1Ds) as well as incredible video (better than 1DX/5D2 but not better than the C300 video camera). Just putting it out there.


1Ds MkIII, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 16-35 f/2.8L II, EF 100mm F/2.8, EF 35 f/1.4L, EF 50 f/1.2L, EF 85 f/1.2L II)

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Shadowblade
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Mar 05, 2012 21:06 |  #53

jayadeff wrote in post #14030600 (external link)
I think that most high-end (Canon) shooters who needed the best image quality ended up going with the 5DMkII instead of the 1DsMkIII because it was a lot cheaper and smaller/lighter. The 5DMkII has become so ubiquitous at weddings and fashion shoots, I think it killed the 1Ds. So, why should Canon put R&D money into a new 1Ds if they won't sell? It would make more sense to put a high Mp sensor into the 5DMkIII body, drop the frame rate, and make it their flag-ship high resolution camera for a reasonable price. Keep the 1D line for photo-journalism where photographers need speed, low noise, and built-like-a-tank durability.

A high-resolution body would be in direct competititon with the D800e - no ifs or buts about it, no question of frame rates, video, high ISO or anything else. It'll need to compete in all areas. Weather sealing, especially, is a big issue for many 1Ds3 shooters.

Basically, to be competitive, it'd either have to have all the features of the 1Ds3 (updated by 5 years) for 3000USD, or have a unique feature so useful for still RAW photography (i.e. not video or a jpeg/in-camera processing related function) that it'd command an extra $1000 premium - true 16-bit output, or something along those lines. The D800e is just that revolutionary - it brought all the features of the previous top-of-the-line, no-holds-barred camera down to the price of a second-tier body.

I think Canon considers the crop-sensor bodies more for budget shooters, and not for the added "reach".

You mean except for the 1D APS-H bodies?

Without a pro-level crop body with a high pixel density, there's nothing in the lineup for wildlife or bird photographers. But, then again, that's never been as lucrative as the sports and wedding markets...




  
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Shadowblade
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Mar 05, 2012 21:10 |  #54

KAS wrote in post #14032035 (external link)
...i.e., it'll make people think that Canon shot themselves in the foot with it? :P

That's the thing. There seems to be the perception that Canon is moving away from the highly specialised lines with little overlap and instead towards more integrated bodies that "do it all". It remains possible that the so-called c-series DSLR does incredible still images (as one would expect from a 1Ds) as well as incredible video (better than 1DX/5D2 but not better than the C300 video camera). Just putting it out there.

In certain parts of design - especially the AA filter - still and video bodies have diametrically opposite requirements. Optimise for one and you hinder the other. A specialist body will almost do better at a job than a general-purpose body.

After all, there's already the C300 as the top-of-the-line video body, which doesn't even pretend to be optimised for stills. A top-of-the-line stills body, with no compromises made for video, would be just as welcome.




  
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KAS
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Mar 05, 2012 21:15 |  #55

Shadowblade wrote in post #14032074 (external link)
In certain parts of design - especially the AA filter - still and video bodies have diametrically opposite requirements. Optimise for one and you hinder the other. A specialist body will almost do better at a job than a general-purpose body.

After all, there's already the C300 as the top-of-the-line video body, which doesn't even pretend to be optimised for stills. A top-of-the-line stills body, with no compromises made for video, would be just as welcome.

I agree totally with you on that view. I still think there's a market for a top-performing stills camera with, as you mentioned earlier, true 16-bit output. Some sort of "RED-killer".

You make a good point on the AA filtering decisions.


1Ds MkIII, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 16-35 f/2.8L II, EF 100mm F/2.8, EF 35 f/1.4L, EF 50 f/1.2L, EF 85 f/1.2L II)

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jayadeff
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Mar 05, 2012 23:48 |  #56

Shadowblade wrote in post #14032046 (external link)
Without a pro-level crop body with a high pixel density, there's nothing in the lineup for wildlife or bird photographers. But, then again, that's never been as lucrative as the sports and wedding markets...

How many serious professional wildlife photographers do you think use crop sensor cameras? The legendary Moose Peterson used Nikon's crop sensor cameras when that was all Nikon offered. But as soon as Nikon introduced a full frame body, he switched to that. I just never see working professional photographers, wildlife or otherwise, rely on amateur crop-sensor cameras to make a living.




  
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Shadowblade
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Mar 06, 2012 03:33 |  #57

jayadeff wrote in post #14033122 (external link)
How many serious professional wildlife photographers do you think use crop sensor cameras? The legendary Moose Peterson used Nikon's crop sensor cameras when that was all Nikon offered. But as soon as Nikon introduced a full frame body, he switched to that. I just never see working professional photographers, wildlife or otherwise, rely on amateur crop-sensor cameras to make a living.

Almost every wildlife photographer who shoots Canon.

Between 1D-series, APS-H bodies and Canon's supertele advantage, most of the lenses you see on dedicated wildlife photography trips are big and white.




  
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jayadeff
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Mar 06, 2012 11:35 |  #58

Shadowblade wrote in post #14033763 (external link)
Almost every wildlife photographer who shoots Canon.

Between 1D-series, APS-H bodies and Canon's supertele advantage, most of the lenses you see on dedicated wildlife photography trips are big and white.

I guess I should have been more specific. I meant, how many working professional wild-life photographers (not hobbyists) use APC-C cameras? I know many use 1D APS-H cameras. And photographers who are paid by Canon to extol the virtues of the 7D don't count.

As a working professional sports, wedding/portrait, and commercial photographer who doesn't have a big budget for equipment, I still prefer to use an older 1DMkIIn and 5D over any APS-C camera (even the 7D). There's a big difference in image quality in my opinion.




  
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Shadowblade
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Mar 06, 2012 13:22 |  #59

jayadeff wrote in post #14035602 (external link)
I guess I should have been more specific. I meant, how many working professional wild-life photographers (not hobbyists) use APC-C cameras? I know many use 1D APS-H cameras. And photographers who are paid by Canon to extol the virtues of the 7D don't count.

As a working professional sports, wedding/portrait, and commercial photographer who doesn't have a big budget for equipment, I still prefer to use an older 1DMkIIn and 5D over any APS-C camera (even the 7D). There's a big difference in image quality in my opinion.

Given that Canon has announced that APS-H is effectively dead, it's a choice between cropping from full-frame, or shooting APS-C.

It's all about the pixel density, and the number of pixels on target. A full-frame body would need to have 27MP to get as many pixels on target as a 1D4, provided the target fits within both the full-frame and 1.3x crop frames at the same focal length (going longer is rarely an option, since wildlife photographers are uually already pushing the focal length limits as it is). It would need 45MP to provide as many pixels-on-target as a 7D, provided the target fits with the APS-C frame at a given focal length. Both are very common scenarios in wildlife photography - a subject small or distant enough to fit into a 1.3x or 1.6x crop frame, even when using long telephotos with a teleconverter.

The 45MP body would be ideal, provided it had the frame rate to keep up with a running animal to capture the key moments (e.g. a kill, or a diving bird catching its prey). But, if a high-enough frame rate isn't feasible, an 18MP 1.6x crop isn't bad either. After all, crop bodies are getting better and better, and the 7D's softness shouldn't be automatic condemnation of all crop sensors - the D7000, with only 2MP less than the 7D, produces outstanding results. A 27MP APS-H sensor would be even better, as a compromise in size, but Canon has basically killed off that idea... Either way, it's better than shooting full-frame 18MP for a 10MP APS-H crop or a 7MP APS-C crop...

After all, wildlife ueed to be shot on 35mm colour film, which is very similar to current APS-C in detail resolved.




  
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robtaylor22
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Mar 06, 2012 13:43 |  #60

I think the two lines are merged for good. However I do think Canon is also reading another new line that will fill the high mega pixel gap Canon currently has with Nikon, Sony and others. I don't think they'll let that stand too much longer.




  
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