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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 06 Mar 2012 (Tuesday) 22:26
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The 5D3 has banding issues. (pattern noise)

 
btmlinedan
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Mar 08, 2012 14:38 |  #166

fill light +100? well duh...


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Shadowblade
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Mar 08, 2012 14:38 |  #167

grahamwynnephoto wrote in post #14050334 (external link)
Pushing shadows to their limits is never going to give you the greatest image quality though is it? I thought you were meant to expose to the right for the best IQ as more of the colour information etc is over that side of the histogram.

That's a very simplistic approach to photography which only works if you're working with a scene with limited DR. If you're dealing with a low-DR scene, you have room to expose it on the right. If you're dealing with a typical landscape, you will have very bright areas and very dark areas - you're already 'exposing to the right', since you'd be blowing the highlights if you exposed the frame for any longer, yet you still have some areas (often large ones) in the darkest one or two stops in the histogram!




  
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pwm2
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Mar 08, 2012 14:43 |  #168

Shadowblade wrote in post #14050992 (external link)
Fair enough - I've never heard of an SLR-sized sensor doing this, though. If they can actually implement it, fantastic!

Another approach would be to read the sensor at several different ISOs - that way, shutter speed would be identical for every pixel and motion blur, etc. would be consistent across the frame.

BTW I get the feeling that, of those who are denying the existence of 5D2 pattern noise, or the existence of pattern noise in at least some of the 5D3 samples, or are saying that pattern noise doesn't matter, none of them are primarily landscape photographers...

Most who haven't seen pattern noise in the 5D2 don't have one. Or stay away from subjects with too much dynamic range.

Most people have seen patterns in 5D3 photos. It's just a question if that is relevant or not. It would be enough that the raw converter (or the camera firmware) isn't correctly making use of the hidden extra photo sites to calibrate the rows/columns to give you this result. Because the sensors can't be built good enough to not have these issues. But they are expected to be repetitive, letting the majority of the variation to be calibrated away.

I do not believe Canon R&D staff are totally incompetent. So I'm quite convinced that the banding published are results of early firmware - or abuse of conversion tools written for another camera model.

But right now, it's way too early to have huge debates about banding in the 5D3. There have already been huge amounts of debates about the 5D2 and people are of course free to ignore whatever problem that don't hurt them.


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grahamwynnephoto
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Mar 08, 2012 16:08 |  #169

Shadowblade wrote in post #14051014 (external link)
That's a very simplistic approach to photography which only works if you're working with a scene with limited DR. If you're dealing with a low-DR scene, you have room to expose it on the right. If you're dealing with a typical landscape, you will have very bright areas and very dark areas - you're already 'exposing to the right', since you'd be blowing the highlights if you exposed the frame for any longer, yet you still have some areas (often large ones) in the darkest one or two stops in the histogram!

I'm fully aware of that, hence why people use HDR, exposure blending, or filters (or some combination of all of them).

But still, pushing the shadows isn't going to give you the best IQ in those areas is it.




  
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Shadowblade
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Mar 08, 2012 16:18 |  #170

grahamwynnephoto wrote in post #14051678 (external link)
I'm fully aware of that, hence why people use HDR, exposure blending, or filters (or some combination of all of them).

But still, pushing the shadows isn't going to give you the best IQ in those areas is it.

When you have moving elements in the scene and a horizon that's not straight, it's the *only* option (except if the elements are just moving back and forth, e.g. leaves or grass, and you take hundreds of pairs of shots in the hope that one pair matches). No other camera on the market today has such a problem with shadow noise - you can easily push a few stops to recover shadow detail, wth good results.




  
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Mar 08, 2012 16:21 |  #171

It's times like these when I really miss Gabor. He must be spinning in his grave over this thread. :cry:



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JersFocus
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Mar 08, 2012 19:38 |  #172

Where are all the cheap 7Ds at??


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Shadowblade
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Mar 08, 2012 19:39 |  #173

JersFocus wrote in post #14052883 (external link)
Where are all the cheap 7Ds at??

In the hands of videographers.

They can't seem to get enough of them.




  
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Mar 08, 2012 20:33 |  #174

Shadowblade wrote in post #14050992 (external link)
Another approach would be to read the sensor at several different ISOs -

FWIW, ISO is nothing to do with the sensor, it is the gain applied to the voltage coming out of the sensor.

But a truly variable ISO sensor would be similar to any other method of making in essentially non-linear.

That what we really want - a non-linear sensor.


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Mar 08, 2012 23:44 |  #175

I've perused through the ISO 100 and ISO 200 shots from Imaging-Resource and don't really see any banding like that of the 5D2 in the shadows of the bottles or the black enamel of the mug. Nothing like what the OP linked to over at DPReview. The crushed velvet is a better indicator of really deep shadow noise, but there's not enough of it to really see much of a pattern. There does appear to be a fair amount of chroma noise, but ACR with Camera Raw 6.7 RC cleans it up pretty well.

Guess we just have to wait for more samples.



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Häakon
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Mar 09, 2012 18:14 |  #176

Drozz119 wrote in post #14040104 (external link)
Only the cool kids underexpose 7 stops and expect good results. :lol:

lol




  
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Mar 09, 2012 19:03 |  #177

Drozz119 wrote in post #14040104 (external link)
Only the cool kids underexpose 7 stops and expect good results. :lol:

I thought the cool kids used Lumos and Holgas?



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williejr
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Mar 09, 2012 20:44 |  #178

pwm2 wrote in post #14051057 (external link)
Most who haven't seen pattern noise in the 5D2 don't have one. Or stay away from subjects with too much dynamic range.

Most people have seen patterns in 5D3 photos. It's just a question if that is relevant or not. It would be enough that the raw converter (or the camera firmware) isn't correctly making use of the hidden extra photo sites to calibrate the rows/columns to give you this result. Because the sensors can't be built good enough to not have these issues. But they are expected to be repetitive, letting the majority of the variation to be calibrated away.

I do not believe Canon R&D staff are totally incompetent. So I'm quite convinced that the banding published are results of early firmware - or abuse of conversion tools written for another camera model.

But right now, it's way too early to have huge debates about banding in the 5D3. There have already been huge amounts of debates about the 5D2 and people are of course free to ignore whatever problem that don't hurt them.

FYI... There was banding issues on the D700 also just to be fair. There are samples of the D800 with banding as well, google it. The 5D2 was well documented, but so was the D700, D3s, D7000 are well documented also. :rolleyes:


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Shadowblade
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Mar 09, 2012 21:23 |  #179

williejr wrote in post #14059400 (external link)
FYI... There was banding issues on the D700 also just to be fair. There are samples of the D800 with banding as well, google it. The 5D2 was well documented, but so was the D700, D3s, D7000 are well documented also. :rolleyes:

The point is, you can push the D7000, D5100 and D3x shadows a lot harder than the Canon shadows without suffering pattern noise.




  
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pwm2
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Mar 10, 2012 06:22 |  #180

williejr wrote in post #14059400 (external link)
FYI... There was banding issues on the D700 also just to be fair. There are samples of the D800 with banding as well, google it. The 5D2 was well documented, but so was the D700, D3s, D7000 are well documented also. :rolleyes:

So what was your point? A reason to flash a sarcastic emoticon? Or did you actually had a point you wanted to make? What would that point be then?

Because all cameras have banding. So that can't be your point.

Some cameras - like the 5D2 - manages to have banding a long way into the stops of dynamic range Canon thinks should be usable. Others have the banding below the noise level. But that is already covered, so that couldn't have been your point.


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The 5D3 has banding issues. (pattern noise)
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