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Thread started 09 Mar 2012 (Friday) 15:48
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7D to 5d2: Will I miss AF?

 
Desertraptor
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Mar 10, 2012 07:44 as a reply to  @ post 14061259 |  #16

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #14061249 (external link)
I think I'd miss the 1.6 crop factor when zooming on anything with a telephoto lens. My 5DII is in the mail, but I'm keeping my 60D for wildlife/sports

Not another who believes in fairies? Or you trolling me?
Putting a EF lens on a crop body does not magically increase your focal length. It's an illusion fed by morons at the local camera stores on the unknowing and the fact that a crop camera actually crops the image for you which gives the illusion of increased magnification. A 50mm EF lens is and always will be a 50mm EF lens no matter what body it's on


Peter
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Lens 10-22mm f2.8|50mm f 1.8|100mm f2.8 Macro

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dailydriver
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Mar 10, 2012 07:57 |  #17

I've had the 5D2 for 3 months and during those times, I was vigorously testing the focus over and over. I probably took about 3000 shots just for testing.

Conclusion: You will miss the focusing on the 7D. Like everyone is saying. Only the center is good. Not great for any motion at all. Even the center focus can't track my 2 year old running.

The conclusion that I came to before just ponding it off on Craigslist for $50 lost is:

1. Great Focusing with all the focus points in my studio. Pictures came out with great details and IQ. This is because my models are posing. If you pixel peep. You'll still love it.

2. Really bad for tracking anything moving. With the center focus point. Out of 10 shots, I would be lucky to get 2 good shots. Not great shots. If you don't pixel peep, then it'll seem okay, but if you zoom in at 100%. You will be disappointed.

3. The outer focus points are just not there basically. The are not useful for tracking at all.

You don't know how much I tried to convince myself to keep the 5D Mark II. Countless sleepiness nights thinking, "Should I keep it? I don't need the 5D3 for $1,500 more..." I was in denial. I have sold it for a $50 lost (considered it rent for 3 months, Not bad).

Now I got the 5D Mark III on order as I can't go back to crop.

Just my opinion on the 5D2 that I tested. I bought it brand new and used it for 3 months. Tested under every condition I could think off. I just accepted it that the AF is bad.


5D MkIII Gripped | S100
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NivoMedia
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Mar 10, 2012 08:03 |  #18

will you miss the faster AF yes, will you enjoy the FF photo yes.


I use a {3+2}D Mark [10-8] and a (23-16)D and a Nikon D(75+75)x2s and a Nikon D(38+2)x

  
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dailydriver
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Mar 10, 2012 08:14 |  #19

Desertraptor wrote in post #14061274 (external link)
Not another who believes in fairies? Or you trolling me?
Putting a EF lens on a crop body does not magically increase your focal length. It's an illusion fed by morons at the local camera stores on the unknowing and the fact that a crop camera actually crops the image for you which gives the illusion of increased magnification. A 50mm EF lens is and always will be a 50mm EF lens no matter what body it's on

That's what I've been wondering about, but never asked the question. I don't care about crop and will never go back to crop, but I would like to know the answer.

Full Frame?: 50mm = 50mm

Crop Frame?: 50mm = 80mm
Does this mean that your FOV is just smaller or does it mean that you are looking out further.

I've never really checked into this. I've always thought that crop will just cut down your FOV.


5D MkIII Gripped | S100
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EF 70-200mm 2.8 L IS USM II
600 EX RT | ST-E3-RT | Yongnou YN560

  
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Hermeto
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Mar 10, 2012 09:08 |  #20
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dailydriver wrote in post #14061345 (external link)
That's what I've been wondering about, but never asked the question. I don't care about crop and will never go back to crop, but I would like to know the answer.

Full Frame?: 50mm = 50mm

Crop Frame?: 50mm = 80mm
Does this mean that your FOV is just smaller or does it mean that you are looking out further.

I've never really checked into this. I've always thought that crop will just cut down your FOV.

Here is the answer to your question:

-=CROP FACTOR=- 10,000 posts on the X-Factor


What we see depends mainly on what we look for.

  
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jhayesvw
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Mar 10, 2012 09:22 as a reply to  @ Hermeto's post |  #21

Crop factor doesn't magically change the lens but it does put more pixels in a smaller area. This allows more cropping with greater detail.
Example. My 60d is 18mp. So i put 18mp in a small area.
A 5d2 is 22mp but puts it over a 60% larger area. This means less detail over that center area.
So the "reach" isn't what you see. It's what you get.
I have done this with a tripod and the 2 cameras.
It's very noticeable.



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amfoto1
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Mar 10, 2012 09:34 |  #22

Desertraptor wrote in post #14061274 (external link)
Not another who believes in fairies? Or you trolling me?
Putting a EF lens on a crop body does not magically increase your focal length. It's an illusion fed by morons at the local camera stores on the unknowing and the fact that a crop camera actually crops the image for you which gives the illusion of increased magnification. A 50mm EF lens is and always will be a 50mm EF lens no matter what body it's on

You're right... and you're wrong.

A 50mm is still a 50mm.

But actually an 18MP APS-C camera "puts more pixels on target" than a 21MP FF camera does... so there is some "free teleconverter" effect. It's just not all of the 1.6X "lens conversion factor".

The pixel site density of the 7D is more than twice that of the 5DII. The crop camera has approx. 53,923 pixel sites per square mm. The FF camera has approx. 24,336 pixel sites per square mm.

Thats's a factor of 2.22X more pixels per square mm in the 7D. Yet the lens conversion factor is only 1.6X.

Now this doesn't take into account other factors such as the quality of those pixel sites, differences in lens resolving capabilities, and the anti-alias filters differences between the two cameras, so it's rather simplistic... But yes, the 7D offers some "free teleconverter" effect. It's somewhat less than 1.6X, but still is more than 1.0X.

I use both and will usually choose the 7D for most subjects that call for some telephoto reach. In order to achieve similar subject framing that I get with a handheld 300mm f4 lens on the 7D, with the 5DII I'd need to use a much larger, heavier, and far more expensive tripod/monopod-only 500/4 lens.

There are plenty of other reasons I'd choose to use the 7D over the 5DII in various situations... Or, vice versa, times that I'd choose the FF camera instead of the crop. That's why I have both.

If I think I'm going to be using the images very large, I'd rather shoot with the FF. I also prefer it for greater control over depth of field and the way it renders bokeh with large aperture shots. It would typically be my choice for landscape shots, portraits, and often for macro... all situations where the FF camera's characteristics can be beneficial and it's shortcomings are minimized.

But the 1.6X camera is closer to FF in image quality than many people give it credit for... There's an awful lot of "full frame goodness" hype flying around. I'll use the croppers when I need better AF performance, higher frame rates, "more reach" and/or want to keep my lens kit as light as possible. Also, the 5DII's shutter is louder and more likely to draw attention in some situations (glad to see the Mark III has a quiet mode... Canon should be able to make the camera a lot quieter... after all, they made the Elan 7/EOS 30 models, which were very quiet "FF" 35mm film cameras.)

Plus, a crop camera allows you to use a smaller, lighter lens kit... And gives you full access to an expanded line of lenses. I.e., in the Canon system a cropper can use both EF and EF-S lenses. But FF is limited to only the EF lens choices.

On the other hand, the 5DII has about a one stop higher ISO advantage over the 7D (that's my estimate and opinion, some folks feel it's more)... And the FF camera's AF system will still work, albeit slowly, about 1 EV lower light than the 7D's. So, IMO, the 5DII is the better choice for more challenging low light shooting.

Dailydriver, a 50mm is always a 50mm. But that 50mm behaves differently on different image formats. When you change image format, any given focal length's Angle of View changes. That 50mm behaves as a "standard" lens on what we now call FF (24x36mm format). The same focal length on a "crop" camera that uses a smaller portion of the image circle projected by the lens behaves as if it's a short telephoto lens.

If Canon also made medium format cameras that could be fitted with the same lenses... say a 6x7 (image area 60x70mm approx.)... that same 50mm lens would be a super wide angle instead. Of course, this is merely theoretical because the lens would need to be significantly redesigned to offer up a large enough image circle to cover a 6x7cm image.

The corollary of the focal length discussion is that while that 50mm behaves as a short telephoto on that crop camera, approx. a 30mm becomes a "standard" lens on that camera (but would be a moderate wide angle on FF).

The only time you really need to worry about lens conversion factors is when switching between image formats. Someone who only uses the more common, so-called "crop" cameras that have the approx 15x22mm sensors, really only needs to worry about how lens focal lengths behave or perform on their particular camera. On the other hand, someone who uses a combination of formats or is making a change between image formats has to give the lens conversion factors some thought.

This isn't anything new and unique to digital cameras either... We had to do the same thing with film cameras in different formats. A "standard" lens for a 4x5" view camera is 180mm, for a 6x7cm medium format it's 90mm, for 645 (4.5x6cm) medium format it's 75mm, for 35mm film it's 50mm. And for so-called "half frame" cameras that make 18x24mm images on the same 35mm film, a standard lens is around 32mm.

As to the OP's original question, the 5DII's AF system isn't nearly as capable as the 7D's tracking moving subjects. Of course a 5DII can be used for sports and other action, but it will be more limiting (center AF point only), struggle more than 7D to maintain focus on subjects in AI Servo mode, and your "keeper rate" will be lower due to more missed focus shots. But you didn't mention what else you shoot or why you think FF might be a better choice for you... Only that you "shoot Formula 1 about twice a year". So I really can't say if 5DII would be a better choice for you. By the way, if you do make the switch, I bet you could rent a camera for those rare occasions where you need to shoot sports/action.

But there are other factors to consider, besides just AF performance. For many things the 5DII might be more desirable. Or it might not. If you never print any larger than, say, 13x19 and/or most of your use of your images is online at Internet resolutions, then the 5DII would more likely than not be wasted. On the other hand, if a lot of your shooting demands max image quality regardless, such as wedding work where there's a whole lot of intense competition for the business, then the FF camera might be best.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII(x2), 7D(x2) & other cameras. 10-22mm, Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5 Macro, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS (x2), 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, studio strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link) - ZENFOLIO (external link)

  
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Canon_Shoe
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Mar 10, 2012 12:42 |  #23

Desertraptor wrote in post #14061274 (external link)
Not another who believes in fairies? Or you trolling me?
Putting a EF lens on a crop body does not magically increase your focal length. It's an illusion fed by morons at the local camera stores on the unknowing and the fact that a crop camera actually crops the image for you which gives the illusion of increased magnification. A 50mm EF lens is and always will be a 50mm EF lens no matter what body it's on

That may be, but the focal range is completely different on different bodies. You have to take a few steps back with a crop sensor to get the same perspective with a 50mm as you would find on a FF. My 100-400L lens is more useful on the 60D as compared to the 5DII. It's still 100-400 on both but 160-640mm on the 60D


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Nikon D810, Nikon 14-24, Nikon 24-70 F/2.8 VR, Nikon 70-200 VR II

  
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newporthomie
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Mar 10, 2012 14:02 |  #24

stillinamerica wrote in post #14058143 (external link)
Yes you will miss it. I made the switch. I need a second body and am torn between 7d and use 5d mk2

So was I, but picked up a 7D today

here todays test shot

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/6969546457_416dae6922_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969546457/  (external link)
IMG_0015 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7058/6969543729_536cc9d06b_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969543729/  (external link)
IMG_0008 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/6969543735_3a94f7f784_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969543735/  (external link)
IMG_0010 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7037/6969546453_7e31323fae_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969546453/  (external link)
IMG_0014 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7197/6969546463_050786ea0f_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969546463/  (external link)
IMG_0016 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7196/6969546475_42eb44a78f_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/47829441@N04/6​969546475/  (external link)
IMG_0019 (external link) by newporthomie (external link), on Flickr



  
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sharky
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Mar 10, 2012 16:59 |  #25

bobbyz wrote in post #14061248 (external link)
big subjects like track cars, planes are never a problem irrespective of how fast they going. The movement is quite predictable that even rebel shouldn't have issues.

The position might be quite predictable, but the movement definitely isn't. The best place to shoot race cars is at a corner, where the cars are inevitably accelerating or decelerating quite significantly (A Formula 1 for instance goes from 0-100 km/h in under 3 seconds). Having shot these things with a 10D, 30D, 50D and now a 7D, I can confidently say that the 7 is the only one that can produce consistently sharp shots. The others could certainly do it it, but with them I found I was deleting about 7 or 8 shots for every one I kept. With the 7D, the ratio is more like 3 discarded for every one keeper.

I think this is pertly due to the faster processors in the 7D, and also the ability to tweak the AF in terms of speed and accuracy. You also have the ability to program it to ignore objects coming between you and the target, which is an absolute godsend when trying to shoot through a fence.

Looking back over my shots from last year I'm actually having a hard time remembering why I was considering giving this camera up!




  
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The ­ One ­ Pixel ­ Wonder
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Mar 11, 2012 11:28 |  #26

sharky wrote in post #14057939 (external link)
While I can live with losing the fps, am I going to find a 5d2 nothing but frustration? I should point out that I was able to get some decent F1 photos using an ancient 10D, but my keeper rate was considerably lower than it is now with the 7D.

Thanks in advance.

It's actually not as bad as the many negative threads regarding the 5D Mark II focusing might have you believe. This is particularly true when you make the plunge expecting the focusing to be less accurate than on the 7D. After a few days with the 5D, I was actually surprised that so many people bash if for focusing - it's actually quite very good! You just have to be more careful with your technique, and of course you don't have the higher frame rate to fire away and hope for a great shot as you do on the 7D. If anything, the 7D to 5D upgrade feels really good as all your L lenses start behaving so much better - so much so that the less than stellar focusing (really just the lack of more cross-type sensors for easier framing) fades into oblivion after a while.


TOPW

  
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7D to 5d2: Will I miss AF?
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