New 430EX II or Refurbished 580EX II for Canon 60D

I have both. get some triggers and go crazy! It is addicting. Light is a great place to look for good pictures much better investment than lenses IMHO

HughR wrote in post #14182219
As the op has a 60D, he can trigger either the 580 or 430 wirelessly off camera using the pop-up flash on the 60D. I regularly use two 430EXs wirelessly off camera with my 60D, and it works perfectly indoors in reasonably sized rooms. Line of sight is not that important in these cases, as the pop-up control signal reflects around corners. Outside, line of sight is important, but it works very well up to about 25 feet as Canon claims. Thus, you have no need of the master control on the 580EX.

Contrary to mltn, at least the pop-up Canon wireless control works exceptionally well (I can't comment on the infrared control).

I guess I've never tried that technique. I just don't trust that kind of system, so I've always had some kind of radio trigger. I had a shoot outside one very chilly night with a couple of models, and I just couldn't get the st-e2 to work with the 2 580s, and it's pretty embarrassing to not be able to get your lights to work. Not to mention the models were freezing.

I realize you're talking about the pop up flash trigger, but you could still run into the same issue, and it will make you angry.

I agree that lights are a better initial investment than lenses. You can apply the same concepts that you learn with small flashes and the kit lens to bigger lights and a better lens. You'll never learn these lighting techniques if you skip the flashes and go straight for the lenses.

Plus once you get in to the f/8 - f/11 range, there isn't going to be a very dramatic difference, between say the 18-55 kit lens and the 17-55 f/2.8.

I also vote to keep both. Play around with the wireless system (tutorial in my signature). it's fun and addictive!

The st-e2 is many many years old tech, The new wireless is way more powerful, you just need to make sure to line up the IR sensors. It works in the sun no problem, you just need to know exactly what you are doing. IMO the SE-E2 is a huge wast of money. ST-E2 flashtube is blocked by the thick red plastic panel, it is there to block the visible flash, If it wast blocked, it would add uncontrolled, on-camera flash to the exposure and change the final results. The 580EXII is way more powerful as a master, get it off the camera with a long ttl cord and you are set up. Use Groups, ratios, power up and down all front the LCD menu of the camera.

I cant wait to get the 600 ex-rt and the new ST-E3-RT and a 1DX or Mk III Going to be a while. I keep buying Lenses and 580exII's

mltn wrote in post #14184275
I guess I've never tried that technique. I just don't trust that kind of system, so I've always had some kind of radio trigger. I had a shoot outside one very chilly night with a couple of models, and I just couldn't get the st-e2 to work with the 2 580s, and it's pretty embarrassing to not be able to get your lights to work. Not to mention the models were freezing.

I realize you're talking about the pop up flash trigger, but you could still run into the same issue, and it will make you angry.

I agree that lights are a better initial investment than lenses. You can apply the same concepts that you learn with small flashes and the kit lens to bigger lights and a better lens. You'll never learn these lighting techniques if you skip the flashes and go straight for the lenses.

Plus once you get in to the f/8 - f/11 range, there isn't going to be a very dramatic difference, between say the 18-55 kit lens and the 17-55 f/2.8.

If you can afford it, I would keep both flashes.

One thing to realize is it takes some learning to master flash photography. Canon E-TTL flash works well indoors well in Auto (A), Program (P) or Manual (M) mode. Outdoors when used for fill, the flash works well in Av or Tv mode. Indoors, the flash does not usually work well in Av or Tv mode.

Direct flash tends to give a deer in the headlights look. Bounce flash usually gives much better results.

There are a lot of resources on flash photography on the web. This is one of my favorites:

http://neilvn.com …h-photography-techniques/

My signature down at the bottom explains my opinion. The 580 is a master unit but can also be a slave off camera. I have multiple lighting options with 3 sources that way.

I have a 60D with (at present) just a single 580Ex II. The 60D manual (p140) has a diagram of using the 580 fired wirelessly and the pop-up flash not firing (i.e. just using the 580 for in-fill). The manual describes settings for just firing the off-camera 580, but a footnote on p141 records "even if you disable the built in flash from firing it will still fire to control the slave unit". So...with this kit, is it possible to fire an off-camera flash without getting a flash from the pop-up, or not?
(I particularly want to avoid the pop-up flash firing to reduce reflections.)

TIA.

You do realize that there is no radio transmitter built into your camera? It sends commands to the slave flash via pulsed light emitted from the popup flash. The popup has to fire the command flashes to control the flash. You just quoted the manual stating so.
Unless you are very close to the subject it will not contribute to the exposure.

HughR wrote in post #14182219
As the op has a 60D, he can trigger either the 580 or 430 wirelessly off camera using the pop-up flash on the 60D. I regularly use two 430EXs wirelessly off camera with my 60D, and it works perfectly indoors in reasonably sized rooms. Line of sight is not that important in these cases, as the pop-up control signal reflects around corners. Outside, line of sight is important, but it works very well up to about 25 feet as Canon claims. Thus, you have no need of the master control on the 580EX.

Contrary to mltn, at least the pop-up Canon wireless control works exceptionally well (I can't comment on the infrared control).

But using the pop up flash as the master will not allow high speed sync, which would be a show stopper for me taking outdoor portraits.