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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 27 Feb 2012 (Monday) 13:01
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Post your Wide Open + Neutral Density + Strobe(s) photos

 
patliean1
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Mar 29, 2012 17:49 |  #136

ND4 means two stops of light was cut so theoretically he could have gotten the same shot at f/3.5 without a ND filter. You have to remember too the shot above wasn't captured at high noon in a cloudless sky. 2 stops of light would not cause the trees in the back to go underexposed unless they were pretty dark to begin with.

The key to whether or not you need a powerful studio strobe or only just a speedlite really depends on what time of day you shoot, if there's an overcast, and how wide of an aperture you desire to use.

You can also change the relative brightness of the sun and subject exposure by adjusting your shutter speed and flash power independently.


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328iGuy
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Mar 29, 2012 18:19 |  #137

What does it take to trigger a shot during daylight where the subject is fully lit, yet the background is extremely dark?


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JakAHearts
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Mar 29, 2012 18:45 |  #138

328iGuy wrote in post #14177282 (external link)
What does it take to trigger a shot during daylight where the subject is fully lit, yet the background is extremely dark?

Well, again, there are a lot of variable there. You can do that with a bare speedlight in close to the subject, no problem. Youll probably be around iso100, F11 and 1/200th of a second. Now, if you want to add a modifier to the speedlight, youre going to be at full power for sure and really really close to the subject. If you want to have a properly exposed mid day sunlight scene, youre going to need an ND filter to allow you to open up your aperture from F11. To get to 2.8, youd need to use a 4 stop ND filter. How this works is that for every stop darker the ND filter makes the scene, you compensate by changing the aperture to a larger opening, a full stop. (3 clicks on the aperture adjuster) Therefore, no adjustment of the strobe is needed and the ambient to flash ratio is kept constant - Only the depth of field changes. Obviously, if you want to go a stop darker, you throw on a 5 stop ND filter, 1/200th (same ambient level, just one stop darker due to the ND filter) and turn up the strobe one stop. This is where the more powerful strobe is needed because if you want day to look like night, youre going to need a more powerful strobe. If you have a 2400ws strobe, you could shoot at F11 AND the 5 stop ND filter and the only light in the entire scene would be from the strobe, even though your subject is in midday sun.

Does that all make sense? Sometimes its hard to organize so much info logically.


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JakAHearts
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Mar 29, 2012 18:48 |  #139

gonzogolf wrote in post #14176448 (external link)
Keep in mind that regardless of the amount of ND added, the balance between flash and sun is unaffected. Both will be cut accordingly by the ND filter, but they keep their brightness relative to each other.

This is correct ONLY if you adjust the aperture by the same number of stops as the ND filter. (I know you know that gonzo, just making sure its clear)


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328iGuy
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Mar 29, 2012 18:52 |  #140

JakAHearts wrote in post #14177409 (external link)
Well, again, there are a lot of variable there. You can do that with a bare speedlight in close to the subject, no problem. Youll probably be around iso100, F11 and 1/200th of a second. Now, if you want to add a modifier to the speedlight, youre going to be at full power for sure and really really close to the subject. If you want to have a properly exposed mid day sunlight scene, youre going to need an ND filter to allow you to open up your aperture from F11. To get to 2.8, youd need to use a 4 stop ND filter. How this works is that for every stop darker the ND filter makes the scene, you compensate by changing the aperture to a larger opening, a full stop. (3 clicks on the aperture adjuster) Therefore, no adjustment of the strobe is needed and the ambient to flash ratio is kept constant - Only the depth of field changes. Obviously, if you want to go a stop darker, you throw on a 5 stop ND filter, 1/200th (same ambient level, just one stop darker due to the ND filter) and turn up the strobe one stop. This is where the more powerful strobe is needed because if you want day to look like night, youre going to need a more powerful strobe. If you have a 2400ws strobe, you could shoot at F11 AND the 5 stop ND filter and the only light in the entire scene would be from the strobe, even though your subject is in midday sun.

Does that all make sense? Sometimes its hard to organize so much info logically.

This is fantastic, thanks so much!:cool:


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JakAHearts
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Mar 29, 2012 19:09 |  #141

You may have heard the phrase before that "Aperture controls the flash, Shutter Speed Controls the ambient" Unfortunately, that isnt really true. Theyre all related and affect each other all the time, it is just easier to think about it and see it that way when first learning. The aperture also controls the ambient light. If the general statement of aperture only controlling the ambient were true, once you got your shutter to sync speed, you would have reached the maximum darkness for a scene. However, we know that by varying the aperture, were also darkening the ambient. Its not like using flash changes the physics of how a camera operates. It simply adds another element that needs controlled. :D Happy strobing!


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KinoC
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Mar 29, 2012 23:22 |  #142

Shane Thanks for the information! I order my ND so I will be learning how to use it with the Einsteins. Thanks again!

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richardpardon
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Mar 31, 2012 11:33 |  #143

Another instalment in my "I Am..." Series and this time its world rowing medallist and olympic hopeful, Chris Bartley:

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6886224336_ebec0e879e_z.jpg
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"I Am..." A Rower (external link) by Richard Pardon | Photographer (external link), on Flickr

Shot at 2.5 on my 50 1.4 with a Tiffen VariND filter and Elinchrom Quadra/Deep Octa combo. For the full story and other images, you can read the blog post here: http://blog.richardpar​don.co.uk/?p=2000 (external link)

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bobbyz
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Mar 31, 2012 11:58 |  #144

328iGuy wrote in post #14177282 (external link)
What does it take to trigger a shot during daylight where the subject is fully lit, yet the background is extremely dark?

Lot of power.:D

OK, so let us start without any ND filter things. Sunny 16 rule, f16, ISO100 with ss of 1/100. So if shooting 1/200, your ambient is f11 @ISO100. Now if you want darker BG, your flash has to be 3-4 stops above ambient. Since ambient at f11, your flash has to be f32 (assuming 3 stops, f16, f22, f32). So your strobe/flash better have power to put f32. I my opinion speedlites can't do that even if you got zoom set to 105mm and speedlite next to the subject. Even when using my 640ws Einstein in a decent modifier where I can shoot full length, I can not be that high as far as flash expsoure is concerned. That is why you need those 2000ws pack and head systems.

Now let us add ND, all it going to do is lower flash as well as ambient by same amount based on the strength of the ND filter. Assume you got 2 stop filter, now flash exposure will be f32 - 2 stops = f16 while ambient will be f11 - 2 stops = f5.6. Ratio between the two (flash/ambient) didn't change. This is the key. All ND filter did is let you shoot at f16 rather than f32.

Want to shoot at say f2.8, use ND filter of 7 stops (f2.8 to f32). Simple.


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Foodguy
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Mar 31, 2012 14:17 as a reply to  @ post 13985622 |  #145

Anyone care to articulate the purpose of this technique for the uninformed? Couldn't you realize similar results by lowering ISO or dialing down the strobe power...or am I missing something?


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MrScott
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Mar 31, 2012 15:06 |  #146

Foodguy wrote in post #14186932 (external link)
Anyone care to articulate the purpose of this technique for the uninformed? Couldn't you realize similar results by lowering ISO or dialing down the strobe power...or am I missing something?

Camera shutters have a max sync speed of ~1/200th of a second. Some are longer, some are shorter. When a flash or strobe goes off, the sync speed is the highest shutter speed that you can achieve without the 2nd curtain of the shutter, blocking some of the flash light from exposing the sensor.

Therefore, if the max SS is 1/200 or so of a second, in full sun or very bright scenes, the F/Stop might approach f11 or f16. When you shoot with a strob that matches the f16 on the subject only - then you can properly balance the subject and background.

An ND filter simply cuts both the flash and ambient light by a specific OR variable amount.

The goal of this entire thread is to shoot images with pleasing DOF, either "Wide Open" as in the subject or very near it. Otherwise 'most' of the images in this thread would be at a smaller fstop and much greater DOF.

We don't want the trees to be 'n focus. We don't want the skyline to be n' focus. We want the subject only and everything else nice and soft...

Regarding the question about ISO - nope... Its still sunny outside and that will expose your image in such a way that you still require an f11 or f16 to get a proper exposure.

Less flash power - nope... Remeber that the flash has to compete with ambient. So the brighter it is outside, the more flash power you need to balance or overwhelm the ambient exposure.




  
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bobbyz
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Mar 31, 2012 15:12 |  #147

Foodguy wrote in post #14186932 (external link)
Anyone care to articulate the purpose of this technique for the uninformed? Couldn't you realize similar results by lowering ISO or dialing down the strobe power...or am I missing something?

In addition to what Mr.Scott said above, if cameras allowed very low ISOs then yes, you could use lower ISO say like 12.5 and don't need 3 stop filter assuming you could get proper exposure at ISO100 to keep your sync speed at 1/200 or under.

Low power only if you shooting in low light. Then you don't need ND filter as ambient is already low.


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Foodguy
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Mar 31, 2012 15:46 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #148

Thanks for the info, makes all kinds of sense to me now.

I *knew* there was a reason that my head wasn't wrapping around this concept: I typically shoot with a leaf shutter'd lens with a digital back that goes to 25 ISO and strobes that can dial way down...so I was thinking about this from an entirely different perspective.

:oops:


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JakAHearts
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Mar 31, 2012 16:26 |  #149

richardpardon wrote in post #14186258 (external link)
Another instalment in my "I Am..." Series and this time its world rowing medallist and olympic hopeful, Chris Bartley:

QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …richardpardon/6​886224336/  (external link)
"I Am..." A Rower (external link) by Richard Pardon | Photographer (external link), on Flickr

Shot at 2.5 on my 50 1.4 with a Tiffen VariND filter and Elinchrom Quadra/Deep Octa combo. For the full story and other images, you can read the blog post here: http://blog.richardpar​don.co.uk/?p=2000 (external link)

Love love love it! Very inspiring series youve got going there. I need to find some more interesting people to shoot, aside from myself. ;)


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MrScott
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Mar 31, 2012 17:38 |  #150

Foodguy wrote in post #14187310 (external link)
Thanks for the info, makes all kinds of sense to me now.

I *knew* there was a reason that my head wasn't wrapping around this concept: I typically shoot with a leaf shutter'd lens with a digital back that goes to 25 ISO and strobes that can dial way down...so I was thinking about this from an entirely different perspective.

:oops:

So you've got 4 things going on everyone else who's contributed to this post if you take your setup outdoors.

1. ISO 25 vs. most DSLR's = 2 stops there
2. Leaf shutter'd lens @ 1/500 of a second = 1 stop there
3. Medium Format DOF vs. DSLR sensor @ 35mm or worse, croped to 1.6x
4. Strobes that can dial way down = bet you a hunskie they can go way up too, huh?

All said and done - without ND filters, you've got 3 stops of ISO/SS on a DSLR. Add in the fact that DOF is much thinner on a MF and you 'could' shoot a MF lens at f4 or f5.6 and still have better DOF than many DSLR's at f2.something...

So where's the outdoors burger shot with the sun acting as a sesame seed light? Even better would be with a model about to munch down on it!




  
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