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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 21 Apr 2012 (Saturday) 20:09
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Would you return this refurb 60D?

 
Gregg.Siam
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Apr 23, 2012 00:47 as a reply to  @ post 14311123 |  #46

Also , just because someone is prepared to fight their corner and you are not , doesn't entitle you to insult them does it ? (douche move=a move made by a douche)

Straw man fallacy. I never said that I wouldn't fight for what was right. I said that asking more than what is deserved (and by more I mean by a huge margin) is a douche move. I find it funny that you think that asking for more than you deserve is "fighting for what is right." Personally, I would make them pay for shipping and fix what they ought to fix. Asking to throw something in would make it nicer, but complaining up the command until you get something far more than you deserve is a douche move and an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

I'll tell you what a douche move is , selling a camera in this state and claiming it has been refurbished by Canon technicians !

Mistakes happen and things can get missed. We have all made mistakes and Canon techs are no different.

It's funny how people complain about for example the 5D3 being too high, but then we have others that imply we can ask Canon for anything because they are a corporation. And no, complaints like this mean nothing if you think it will get something changed. It's just greed.

For those of you that have reading comprehension issues, I didn't say asking for something is necessarily wrong. I said asking for way too much and then complaining up the management chain until you get it is. The difference between those two lenses is $275. Do you really think Canon owes you 25% of what a used 60D costs just for your time? (basing it on $800).

If you were a business owner and selling cameras, would you throw away all profits and take a huge loss? No, you wouldn't. So why should Canon?


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justanothaguy
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Apr 23, 2012 01:46 |  #47

mwsilver wrote in post #14306587 (external link)
Understand your point, and his suggestion was maybe a bit too much, but sending out a camera in that condition and forcing the OP to now spend his time and money to send it back deserves some kind of compensation. Unfortunately, most companies won't provide any compensation unless the unlucky customer makes a real stink.

Not to add fuel to the fire but I was a regional manager for a fortune 500 company.. I always felt more obligated to help customers who didn't make demands of me..... a error in a product IMO no way make you entitled to compensation other then a speedy return of a functional one... you buy a new TV from best buy get home and notice there is a dead pixel you don't go in demanding a free blue ray player for your trouble *or at least I wouldn't*

Canon offers refurbed products at a discount with a limited warranty for your and their benefit.... if you didn't want to bother with possible issues go to a local store front where you can try it before you buy it... we all take a similar risk buying things online... I just purchased a 16-35L mkII lens online and am at the mercy of what they send me but if its defective I'll have to send it back and wait on a swap... its the risk I take by benefiting from a reduced price for a product.

/rant :lol:
I just wish people would calm down and not make everything in life such a big deal sometimes


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Gregg.Siam
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Apr 23, 2012 01:51 as a reply to  @ justanothaguy's post |  #48

Yeah, my first job was in retail. We had people that would bring back a defective product and demand that we pay their gas. :rolleyes:

I'm happy I can purchase refurbs from Canon at a discount and if something goes wrong, it's a chance I knew from the beginning. It's still covered under warranty so it's not like I have no recourse.


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mwsilver
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Apr 23, 2012 03:20 |  #49

justanothaguy wrote in post #14311627 (external link)
Not to add fuel to the fire but I was a regional manager for a fortune 500 company.. I always felt more obligated to help customers who didn't make demands of me..... a error in a product IMO no way make you entitled to compensation other then a speedy return of a functional one... you buy a new TV from best buy get home and notice there is a dead pixel you don't go in demanding a free blue ray player for your trouble *or at least I wouldn't*

Canon offers refurbed products at a discount with a limited warranty for your and their benefit.... if you didn't want to bother with possible issues go to a local store front where you can try it before you buy it... we all take a similar risk buying things online... I just purchased a 16-35L mkII lens online and am at the mercy of what they send me but if its defective I'll have to send it back and wait on a swap... its the risk I take by benefiting from a reduced price for a product.

/rant :lol:
I just wish people would calm down and not make everything in life such a big deal sometimes

I generally agree with you. If you read my other post you would have seen that I indicated that some companies, in order to help make the customer whole and happy, and to maintain their reputation, will often offer compensation such as discount coupons or an extension of the warranty period. Its good for a business to do this, and with minimal cost, when they screw up.

But let's take this to the issue to the extreme, if a "refurbished" camera from Canon was delivered in non-working condition with scars on the body, while they may legally only be required to replace the camera as per the warranty, failure to go beyond that would be a poor business decision. Would a first time buyer go back for more? Would older customers be concerned that standards have been lowered? Its not giving away the store to tell your customers that you recognize the problem, that you'll fix the problem and that you'll give them a little something extra as a thank you for their patience and confidence. Its good business and it only gets expensive if you screw up a lot..


Mark
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mjmackinnon
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Apr 23, 2012 07:48 as a reply to  @ mwsilver's post |  #50

Are you forgetting what a Refurbished program really is?

In the USA and other parts of the world, a manufacturer cannot resell a non virgin off the assembly line product as new. They must mark it as refurbished. Many companies have a liberal return policy that you have so many days to try out the product and if you don't like it, return it for your money back. Companies doing this would have Actuaries that figure out the risk of how many products will be returned vs sold, and the cost associated with offering this. There are people who never really buy but will take this as an inexpensive rental system. When you buy a product, you are paying for this service if you use it or not.

But that only covers part of the refurbish system. In manufacturing, they have QC. It costs way too much money to test everything! You want to minimize risk, so sending out products that are likely to be defective costs you money customer bad will as well as repair costs. The most cost effective method of QC for camera's is to test a sample of units from a batch and if those don't meet the QC standard, you reject the whole batch. Again an Actuary would have figured out a likelihood of a batch getting rejected and associated cost, and that is added into the sale price of the good unit being sold.


So what happens to that rejected batch? They might not all be broken, or might cost little to repair, so they send the batch to the repair department where they will inspect every unit to see what is wrong, and fix it. But that cannot be sold as new even though is has never been used or even sold. This too is a refurb.

So every item that is a refurb has got to be inspected to fix what is wrong with it to bring it up to factory tolerances. When you buy referb direct from the manufacturer, you have lost the ability to pre-inspect what you are getting, but have the implied understanding that the manufacturer has done this for you. You are getting a discount, but you are also taking the risk that you might be getting a unit that someone else had used. But it's on the understanding that it has been checked and fixed as required. The price is cheaper, but you also get less. You have 90days of warranty vs 1 year. That has a huge cost savings for Canon.

But remember those Actuaries. They have calculated risk for defect and already offset the cost loss of such so the refub product being sold is total profit minus the cost if any to inspect and repair the items. So don't think that the $799 camera cost Canon anywhere near that amount. On book it might only be worth $50-100.

Everything has a risk. If you buy new, it's your risk to pre-inspect, but you more than likely have an option to return back to the store for an exchange if there is something wrong. But as this customer bought from Canon a referb that they had no choice in picking. Canon is making a good profit from selling a refurb that otherwise they would be forced to scrap as legally they can't sell it as new.

Don't go saying poor is me for the corporation. They are in the business to make money, and a good healthy profit they make. Remember that he who is making the profit should also assume the risk. There is a very large difference between making a profit and saving some money.


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Warbird55
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Apr 23, 2012 08:31 |  #51

This thread needs to be locked.


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mwsilver
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Apr 23, 2012 08:42 |  #52

mjmackinnon wrote in post #14312284 (external link)
Are you forgetting what a Refurbished program really is?

In the USA and other parts of the world, a manufacturer cannot resell a non virgin off the assembly line product as new. They must mark it as refurbished. Many companies have a liberal return policy that you have so many days to try out the product and if you don't like it, return it for your money back. Companies doing this would have Actuaries that figure out the risk of how many products will be returned vs sold, and the cost associated with offering this. There are people who never really buy but will take this as an inexpensive rental system. When you buy a product, you are paying for this service if you use it or not.

But that only covers part of the refurbish system. In manufacturing, they have QC. It costs way too much money to test everything! You want to minimize risk, so sending out products that are likely to be defective costs you money customer bad will as well as repair costs. The most cost effective method of QC for camera's is to test a sample of units from a batch and if those don't meet the QC standard, you reject the whole batch. Again an Actuary would have figured out a likelihood of a batch getting rejected and associated cost, and that is added into the sale price of the good unit being sold.


So what happens to that rejected batch? They might not all be broken, or might cost little to repair, so they send the batch to the repair department where they will inspect every unit to see what is wrong, and fix it. But that cannot be sold as new even though is has never been used or even sold. This too is a refurb.

So every item that is a refurb has got to be inspected to fix what is wrong with it to bring it up to factory tolerances. When you buy referb direct from the manufacturer, you have lost the ability to pre-inspect what you are getting, but have the implied understanding that the manufacturer has done this for you. You are getting a discount, but you are also taking the risk that you might be getting a unit that someone else had used. But it's on the understanding that it has been checked and fixed as required. The price is cheaper, but you also get less. You have 90days of warranty vs 1 year. That has a huge cost savings for Canon.

But remember those Actuaries. They have calculated risk for defect and already offset the cost loss of such so the refub product being sold is total profit minus the cost if any to inspect and repair the items. So don't think that the $799 camera cost Canon anywhere near that amount. On book it might only be worth $50-100.

Everything has a risk. If you buy new, it's your risk to pre-inspect, but you more than likely have an option to return back to the store for an exchange if there is something wrong. But as this customer bought from Canon a referb that they had no choice in picking. Canon is making a good profit from selling a refurb that otherwise they would be forced to scrap as legally they can't sell it as new.

Don't go saying poor is me for the corporation. They are in the business to make money, and a good healthy profit they make. Remember that he who is making the profit should also assume the risk. There is a very large difference between making a profit and saving some money.

What you are saying is basically true. While some customers do want a free lunch, the majority play by the rules. Some companies are the same. Some will take care of their customers, bending over backwards to do so. For other companies, It's buyer beware for their customers Feeling sorry for Canon if they have to replace items is not the customers problem. When you purchase something in good faith that's a refurb and it clearly wasn't properly inspected, a responsible company should go above and beyond to fix the problem to maintain its reputation.


Mark
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Foggiest
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Apr 23, 2012 11:52 |  #53

Gregg.Siam wrote in post #14311463 (external link)
*Snip*

We'll have to agree to disagree .
You may say I am a douche-bag for getting all I can from Canon (in this case).
Whilst I may say you take it like a pu$$y , for not doing so .

Edit to say :
This may shed some more light on my standpoint .
I don't buy refurbs or used , I am happy to pay full retail (even a little more to support local camera shop) for my lenses and bodies .




  
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Apr 23, 2012 13:23 |  #54

Warbird55 wrote in post #14312439 (external link)
This thread needs to be locked.

Amen....back to taking pics, folks.


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mjmackinnon
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Apr 23, 2012 16:32 |  #55

my hope is that the OP gets the whole camera replaced by Canon. I hope that the replacement is pristine , as in a brand spanking new one that needed a once over due to QC rather than used and returned.

I will agree that expecting an upgrade to a 50f1.4 is a bit of a far reach (as I has suggested in my first post), but I don't think that a spare set of batteries would be that much out of the question.

Please let us know what they did end up doing.


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TeamSpeed
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Apr 23, 2012 18:42 |  #56

mjmackinnon wrote in post #14315116 (external link)
my hope is that the OP gets the whole camera replaced by Canon. I hope that the replacement is pristine , as in a brand spanking new one that needed a once over due to QC rather than used and returned.

I will agree that expecting an upgrade to a 50f1.4 is a bit of a far reach (as I has suggested in my first post), but I don't think that a spare set of batteries would be that much out of the question.

Please let us know what they did end up doing.

That I agree with, I think Canon would be better off just swapping out one for another that checks out better. That is certainly within the realm of reasonability, especially given the return window and warranty period still in effect for this refurb unit. I don't see any issue with just asking Canon to swap it out for another. They may not do that, it depends on stock. I had to return one of my 5D2s purchased as a refurb, because they could not swap it out. I then had to play the waiting game for a 5D2 to appear in stock.


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rpadula
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May 28, 2012 14:28 |  #57

Hi everyone,

I'm returning to give a quick follow-up that I did receive a replacement 60D about two weeks ago. It is a different unit (different serial number). No more scuzz in the viewfinder!

-Rich


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mwsilver
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May 28, 2012 18:37 |  #58

rpadula wrote in post #14496280 (external link)
Hi everyone,

I'm returning to give a quick follow-up that I did receive a replacement 60D about two weeks ago. It is a different unit (different serial number). No more scuzz in the viewfinder
-Rich

Great! Enjoy. You should probably run the EOS shutter count utility to see how many actuations are on your camera. The thread with the utility in on this site. Only critically important is the camera is reasonably close to the maximum specification of around 100k.


Mark
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S.n.a.f.u.
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May 28, 2012 21:48 |  #59

TeamSpeed wrote in post #14307311 (external link)
There are risks buying new or buy used, that is why the warranty exists. You don't get extra compensation when utilizing a warranty, you received the peace of mind the warranty gave you when you make that initial purchase, that is your compensation.

People need to apply this thought to their own lives. If, every time you mess up at work or at home, somebody demanded that not only you fix the issue to their satisfaction and expectation, but that you also pay them a lump sum of money or give them something they really long for, think of where you would be right now.

Very well written! But to play devils advocate for a minute, do you think a plausible request might have been a free cleaning & inspection coupon with the OP being responsible foe shipping both ways.


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Would you return this refurb 60D?
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