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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 17 May 2012 (Thursday) 23:20
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New vs. MF lenses

 
clarnibass
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May 17, 2012 23:20 |  #1

HI

I have an old Olympus manual focus lens 50mm f/1.4 that I really like. I would like to get longer and shorter lenses and don't mind manual focus if it saves a lot of the price. What's very important is the apareture which has to be no more than f/1.8. I looked at some good older manual focus lenses (like Nikkor) and ones with f/1.8 or bigger actually cost about the same or more than new Canon 28mm or 85mm lenses. So, I think the newer Canon ones might be the better option. I'm looking for an approx 85mm lens and a <30mm lens probably. So I thought the Canon 28mm f/1.8 and the 85mm f/1.8, unless I can find good manual focus lenses for significantly less.

Thanks


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Sirrith
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May 17, 2012 23:23 |  #2

MF 85mm's are quite expensive, you're better off with the canon.

Fast wide angle MF lenses are also expensive because it was harder to make them back then, so you're again better off with the canon. Though if you're on crop I'd recommend looking at the sigma 30 1.4 since it has slightly better IQ than the canon and is a bit faster.


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Wilt
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May 17, 2012 23:45 |  #3


  1. Metering accuracy is questionable with manual lenses. I have proven this fact, and others have tried and confirmed this to be true!
  2. When you focus manually with the dSLR, the viewfinder is optimized for brightness, NOT for focus accuracy with fast apertures!
  3. You need a 'chipped adapter' to get focus confirmation light in the viewfinder to work.
  4. Don't forget you need to manually move lens to wide open for focus, then to stop down for shooting!

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clarnibass
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May 17, 2012 23:53 |  #4

Thanks.

I'm used to older manual lenses and I'm aware of these things. I don't mind them if I can get one for let's say about half of the Canon, but it seems that I can't.


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May 18, 2012 01:59 |  #5

Even though I have a Nikkor 105mm f/2.5, I purchased a Canon 100mm f/2. I was trying to chase two dogs around and the AF of the Canon was wonderfull.
Even though I have a Nikkor 35mm f/2, I purchased a Sigma 30mm f/1.4.
Even though I have a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4, I purchased a Canon 60mm f 2.8.
For tripod use or if I had the time, I was quite happy with using my old Nikkor glass, but for hand-held and a moving subject use, I really like the AF of my new lenses.
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Mike ­ Deep
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May 18, 2012 03:32 |  #6

clarnibass wrote in post #14448996 (external link)
Thanks.

I'm used to older manual lenses and I'm aware of these things. I don't mind them if I can get one for let's say about half of the Canon, but it seems that I can't.

You can, but it requires trolling thrift stores, pawn shops, flea markets, and local camera shops. Some finds can be just outrageous if the seller presumes the gear is worthless because it's "for film," or if manual film gear simply doesn't move much (Not having a nearby college with a photography program helps).

In some cases Nikkors have held their value better because of backwards compatibility.


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melcat
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May 18, 2012 05:42 |  #7

Wilt wrote in post #14448978 (external link)

  1. Metering accuracy is questionable with manual lenses. I have proven this fact, and others have tried and confirmed this to be true!

You have proven you don't know how to do it properly. It works for me on multiple bodies. I have looked at your "results" in the past, and the only ways I can see of getting the 5 stop error you do are:

- metering wide open instead of stopped down.

- setting a chipped adaptor to the shooting aperture, stopping down, and then metering. Of course the camera thinks the nonexistent auto aperture is going to stop down again and you get a metering error.

My guess is it's the second, but you have never been clear on your methodology.

The only "error" I see is the camera not correcting for fall-off in the lens becauae it doesn't know what lens it is, the same "error" I see in my Canon lenses newer than the bodies and my Zeiss lens.

I wish you would stop posting this repeatedly.

I don't know what combinations of stock screen and chipped adaptor work, but for sure Ee-S + unchipped adaptor + OM lenses works on my 5D. I got this straight out of the Fred Miranda Alt forum, where there were *numerous* people doing it. How did you suppose the adaptor people had a business otherwise?




  
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melcat
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May 18, 2012 05:46 |  #8

clarnibass wrote in post #14448875 (external link)
What's very important is the apareture which has to be no more than f/1.8.

Assuming what you mean is that the aperture has to be no *less* than f/1.8, even the f/2 OM Zuikos cost more than new Canon lenses of the same or lesser speed - because they are better.

The exception is the 50mm f/1.8.




  
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bohdank
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May 18, 2012 06:56 |  #9

Not a f2 but the 24/2.8 Zuiko I have isn't better than anything Canon makes, imo. It's for sale, btw.

I have limited experience with older manual lenses (on a dSLR) but the Zuiko mentioned isn't anything special. The CZ 28/2.8 is a good lens if you want to save some money, it's better than the Zuiko but, again. nothing special. The CZ 50/1.7, for the $100 I got it for, was a good buy. It's the only one I intend to keep because I don't have any primes in that focal range, even though I use it only when I want a change. I have never used it because I needed to. So, it's a hobby lens, for me.

So, based on that very limited group of lenses, way too much hype and fuss is given to these older MF lenses in certain circles, imo.

I'm sure and know there are some exceptional older lenses but, for the most part, just because it is old and MF does not mean it is good.


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pulsar123
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May 18, 2012 07:35 |  #10

Why "vs."? There are great lenses out there which are both new and MF. Some of them (like Samyang - 85mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4 etc.) are also significantly cheaper than Canon/Sigma etc AF offerings.


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ZoneV
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May 18, 2012 09:34 |  #11

Not many manual lenses with ~28mm and f/1.8 or faster are available. With f/2.0 the Kiron comes to mind, but I don't like it´s quality wide open even on the EOS 5D.
So there you better take the Canon AF lens.

For 85mm lenses with 1.8 or faster are some options. But most are expensive - because they have 1.4 or 1.2. The Pentax 85/2.0, Jupiter 9 85/2.0, Nikkor 85/2.0, Olympus 85/2.0 and probably others are too slow.
The Zeiss Contax 85/1.4, Helios 40 85/1.5, Zeiss Jena Biotar 75/1.5, Nikkor 85/1.4 AI-S are too expensive. Canon FD 85mm f/1,8 (and even more f/1.2L) are hard to convert to Canon EF mount - if you are good at tinkering and like it this could be an option. Did this with the f/1.2L version and others (see my homepage).
Minolta MC 85/1.7 could be an other option to convert - easier than Canon FD.

Probably the Pentax SMC 85/1.8 lenses could be an option - but the price is not that low.
The Samyang lenses could be an option too - but they have very cheap mechanics. On the 85/1.4 sometimes the iris stucks. And on some lenses you get wooly bokeh.


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Wilt
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May 18, 2012 09:54 |  #12

melcat wrote in post #14449663 (external link)
You have proven you don't know how to do it properly. It works for me on multiple bodies. I have looked at your "results" in the past, and the only ways I can see of getting the 5 stop error you do are:

- metering wide open instead of stopped down.

- setting a chipped adaptor to the shooting aperture, stopping down, and then metering. Of course the camera thinks the nonexistent auto aperture is going to stop down again and you get a metering error.

My guess is it's the second, but you have never been clear on your methodology.

The only "error" I see is the camera not correcting for fall-off in the lens becauae it doesn't know what lens it is, the same "error" I see in my Canon lenses newer than the bodies and my Zeiss lens....I don't know what combinations of stock screen and chipped adaptor work, but for sure Ee-S + unchipped adaptor + OM lenses works on my 5D. I got this straight out of the Fred Miranda Alt forum, where there were *numerous* people doing it. How did you suppose the adaptor people had a business otherwise?

I have over 45 years experience with TTL cameras, some of which used stopped down metering (Pentax, Mamiya, Yashica), most of which use wide open metering. My methodology, in tests with 40D with EF-D screen focus screen...

I meter stopped down to shooting aperture, and (in Av or M -- the results are identical) then set the shutter speed according to the meter.


With an unchipped adapter. :


  1. I meter stopped down to shooting aperture, and (in Av or M -- the results of metering mode are identical) set the shutter speed according to the meter.
  2. Import RAW files into LR and have all Exposure and all other settings set to +0.0, with Brightness = +50 and Contrast set to +25.
For reference, incident meter indicates ISO 100, 1/30 f/1.4 for all of the following...

Here are the results with unchipped adapter 40D meter in Av mode, using Olympus OM50mm f/1.4, starting at f/1.4 and progressing down the apertures to f/16 (note: exposure #9 is not part of this test series):
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40DunchippedOM50_14.jpg


The results with chipped adapter (set to f/1.8). , 40D meter in Av mode with Olympus OM 50mm f/1.4, starting at f/1.4 and progressing down the apertures to f/16:
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40DchippedOM50_14.jpg
While this appears better at f/1.4, it still is NOT accurate. The in-camera meter asked for 1/15, 1/8, 0"4, 1'3, 2", 4", 6", 10"
rather than 1/30, 1/15, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1 (which the incident meter asked for)

Same procedure repeated unchipped adapter, but using OM50mm f/1.8 lens instead:
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40DunchippedOM50_18.jpg


Same procedure repeated with chipped adapter (set to f/1.8). , but using OM50mm f/1.8 lens instead:
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40DchippedOM50_18.jpg
While this appears accurate at f/1.8, it still is NOT accurate. The in-camera meter asked for 1/15, 1/13, 1/6, 0'5, 2", 4", 6", 8"
rather than 1/20, 1/15, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1 (which the incident meter asked for). Yet the chip is set for f/1.8, and the lens is an f/1.8

These result reflect my warnings that the meter is not necessarily accurate! While it does seem that using a chipped adapter which is set match to the physical max aperture (e.g. f/1.8) is close, what point it is to want to shoot at f/16 but have to first meter at f/1.8 and then count down -7EV to f/16 and then also count shutter clicks up +7EV to suit?! And what happens when you want to mount a 135mm f/2.8 lens using the same adapter...re-program it in the field before shooting and then have to reprogram it back to f/1.8 when switching back to the 50mm?!

melcat wrote:
I wish you would stop posting this repeatedly.

Why stop giving advice when the advise can be shown to be true? Using my 5D which has the EE-D focusing screen in it, the results are better with the same lens and same chipped adapter...Why any difference? I'm not supposed to use stopped down metering?...then why these much better and much more consistent results (not perfectly consistent, though) with the 5D?!

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/5DchippedOM50_18.jpg


With chipped and unchipped adapters out there, and with folks trying to use the same adapter on multiple lenses, one has to be very careful and follow very, very explicit procedures or risk getting wrong results!!! Yet there is NO ACCURATE result in the above 4 series, even with a chip matching the max aperture of the lens used!!! Yet a different model camera can work better, with the same adapter and lens. So how will anyone know if their combination will be right, without testing? And that is the reason to use a handheld meter with these adapters.

PS: For folks reading this thread...ALL frames in any single series should have IDENTICAL density values, and NOT differing ones, all of them about mid-tone density. If you do NOT get identical tones, you are experiencing variable meter exposure values and not uniform metering.

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clarnibass
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May 18, 2012 10:24 |  #13

melcat wrote in post #14449667 (external link)
Assuming what you mean is that the aperture has to be no *less* than f/1.8, even the f/2 OM Zuikos cost more than new Canon lenses of the same or lesser speed - because they are better.

sorry, it's my second language. Yes, I meant "bigger" and not "more". Thanks.

pulsar123 wrote in post #14449869 (external link)
Why "vs."? There are great lenses out there which are both new and MF. Some of them (like Samyang - 85mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4 etc.) are also significantly cheaper than Canon/Sigma etc AF offerings.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

bohdank wrote in post #14449794 (external link)
So, based on that very limited group of lenses, way too much hype and fuss is given to these older MF lenses in certain circles, imo.

Maybe, I don't know. I looked and found many 50mm f/1.4 manual lenses that I thoguht were very good for under $200. I use my 50mm f/1.4 almost always at 1.4. I shoot in dark places so it helps a lot. I think I can live with f/1.8 but I guess these old wider and longer lenses cost significantly more than the 50mm. Anyway I really like my Olympus 50mm f/1.4.


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Mike ­ Deep
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May 18, 2012 14:32 |  #14

$200 for a 50/1.4 that doesn't have Zeiss in the name isn't very exciting. The fun part of MF lenses is when you nab a 50/1.4 for $20 and happen into things you otherwise wouldn't have budgeted for.


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clarnibass
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May 19, 2012 00:04 |  #15

FWIW I meant under $200 here, which includes international shipping and tax. I also found many, so some are a lot less than $200, some are just a little less. Prices are usually more expensive here in general. If I can get a friend to bring one from USA it's less (happens sometimes).

I just compared the prices of the new lenses:
85mm f/1.8 is $490 (vs. $390 in USA)
28mm f/1.8 is $630 (vs. $470 in USA)
These lenses are actually relatively similar in price comapred with many others.


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