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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 22 Jan 2012 (Sunday) 09:10
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Are Amateurs destroying Photography

 
20droger
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May 19, 2012 10:15 as a reply to  @ post 14454431 |  #766

And, Craftsman was Tim Allen's favorite brand of tools in his stand-up days.




  
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Ricardo222
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May 19, 2012 17:10 |  #767

20droger wrote in post #14454864 (external link)
And, Craftsman was Tim Allen's favorite brand of tools in his stand-up days.

Of course! I'd forgotten about that Ace of clowns! I still have a Sears jacket I bought in Gainesville, Florida, in 1988. It's a bit munted now but did good service for many years!


Growing old disgracefully!

  
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tonylong
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May 20, 2012 00:10 |  #768

I've used Craftsmen stuff with good results. So, If Sears puts out a Craftsman camera, does that make me a professional, or just a craftsman? This can get confusing!


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mikekelley
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May 20, 2012 00:18 |  #769

amateurs aren't destroying photography, just scaring the lousy pros


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harcosparky
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May 20, 2012 05:47 |  #770

dtufino wrote in post #13747535 (external link)
It seems everyone has a DSLR with a KIT lens and consider themselves a "Professional Photographer" but ask them what's the difference between aperture and Shutter speeds they have no clue....

Recently, some of my clients have said that my rates are high compared to other Professional Photographer, when in fact my prices are super Low end for portraiture work.... i tell them they get what they pay for....

The question is... is photography dying in the professional sense? The only place i see photography live is in Sports Photography... Amateurs don't knwo how to shoot sports... yet.... lol


Wow ... do I sense an attitude! :lol:

Amateurs are not killing photography.

TECHNOLOGY is killing photography.

Professionals going digital are killing photography.

How many working professionals on the job today would be lost in a real dark room? ( who needs a darkroom, we have computers )

How many working professionals on the job today could remove a roll of ISO 100 film from a camera and put in a roll of ISO 400 film in a parking lot on a sunny day? ( who needs to change film we just turn a dial and change ISO )

TECHNOLOGY makes the dark room unnecessary.

Hell you can BUY software to make your snapshots look professional.

Don't hate on those who take advantage of TECHNOLOGY, hate on those who created it.

I used to make a ton of $$$$$$$ doing product photography for Antique Dealers, now every frigging Antique Dealer I used to work for has their own DSLR because they are so inexpensive.

TECHNOLOGY is changing the world ....... deal with it.


EDIT: Funny thing is I just finished selling off all of my digital gear and I am getting back to the business of REAL PHOTOGRAPHY. You know, cameras, FILM, changing bags, developer solutions, enlargers and the fun stuff. When I come out with an image it is truly something *I* produced and not something produced by ADOBE! :lol:

.




  
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Guari
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May 20, 2012 05:55 |  #771

harcosparky wrote in post #14458144 (external link)
Wow ... do I sense an attitude! :lol:

Amateurs are not killing photography.

TECHNOLOGY is killing photography.

Professionals going digital are killing photography.

How many working professionals on the job today would be lost in a real dark room? ( who needs a darkroom, we have computers )

How many working professionals on the job today could remove a roll of ISO 100 film from a camera and put in a roll of ISO 400 film in a parking lot on a sunny day? ( who needs to change film we just turn a dial and change ISO )

TECHNOLOGY makes the dark room unnecessary.

Hell you can BUY software to make your snapshots look professional.

Don't hate on those who take advantage of TECHNOLOGY, hate on those who created it.

I used to make a ton of $$$$$$$ doing product photography for Antique Dealers, now every frigging Antique Dealer I used to work for has their own DSLR because they are so inexpensive.

TECHNOLOGY is changing the world ....... deal with it.


EDIT: Funny thing is I just finished selling off all of my digital gear and I am getting back to the business of REAL PHOTOGRAPHY. You know, cameras, FILM, changing bags, developer solutions, enlargers and the fun stuff. When I come out with an image it is truly something *I* produced and not something produced by ADOBE! :lol:

.

+1

well said


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mspringfield
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May 20, 2012 08:10 |  #772

From my experience I think it is a combination of technology and amateurs who don't know what they are doing. A couple of examples:

1) Several years ago I was shooting a cheer and dance event where the company I was shooting for had an exclusive and all cameras other than P&S were supposed to be stopped at the door. I saw a guy sneaking around with a D3 and a 70-200VR shooting one of the teams. I called over one of the ushers from the event and pointed him out. He was escorted out. A couple of weeks later I saw him out in public and he called me out. "Hey, you are that guy that had me kicked out of the cheer event". I said "Yes, I am" and explained that I had no problem with him shooting his kid's team but I did have a problem with him sneaking around to do it acting like he was there to take and sell shots. I explained that professional courtesy said that he should come up and talk to me and let me know that he was just there to shoot his kid. Turns out that he was an amateur trying to start his own studio. The next event I shot with his kid he came up to me, shook my hand, I gave him a few pointers and we shot side by side. We did this for several years until his daughter graduated and left the cheer and dance gym.

2) Also a few years ago I had a couple of friends getting married. They hired a "professional" photographer to shoot the wedding from out of town. Apparently some friend of the bride who was supposed to be a great wedding photographer. She shows up a couple of days before the wedding with an HP P&S and had the nerve to ask if she could borrow my camera gear and if I would teach her how to use it. I politely declined and quickly realized that this was going to turn into a huge cluster @*#%. On the day of the wedding I brought my gear and shot the wedding as a "second shooter". While the "pro" was running around with her P&S during the ceremony getting in everyone's way and making a general nuisance of herself. As a sports photographer who had never shot a wedding in my life I identified a couple of spots where I could get the shots while causing the minimum disruption of the ceremony. As a wedding gift I provided the couple with an 11x17 of them together, an 8x10 of the bride and groom by themselves and a book of shots from the wedding and reception. To this day my shots are the ones on their mantle and my wedding book is on their coffee table. I have no idea where the "professional" shot are.

"Professional" is an attitude and the way you present yourself more than the gear you have. While I agree that it sometimes seems that everyone with a DSLR calls themselves a "Pro" the results speak for themselves.


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Clean ­ Gene
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May 20, 2012 08:43 |  #773

harcosparky wrote in post #14458144 (external link)
Wow ... do I sense an attitude! :lol:

Amateurs are not killing photography.

TECHNOLOGY is killing photography.

Professionals going digital are killing photography.

How many working professionals on the job today would be lost in a real dark room? ( who needs a darkroom, we have computers )

How many working professionals on the job today could remove a roll of ISO 100 film from a camera and put in a roll of ISO 400 film in a parking lot on a sunny day? ( who needs to change film we just turn a dial and change ISO )

TECHNOLOGY makes the dark room unnecessary.

Hell you can BUY software to make your snapshots look professional.

Don't hate on those who take advantage of TECHNOLOGY, hate on those who created it.

I used to make a ton of $$$$$$$ doing product photography for Antique Dealers, now every frigging Antique Dealer I used to work for has their own DSLR because they are so inexpensive.

TECHNOLOGY is changing the world ....... deal with it.


EDIT: Funny thing is I just finished selling off all of my digital gear and I am getting back to the business of REAL PHOTOGRAPHY. You know, cameras, FILM, changing bags, developer solutions, enlargers and the fun stuff. When I come out with an image it is truly something *I* produced and not something produced by ADOBE! :lol:

.

Now, here's a question: are your pictures going to be better than those of the faux photographers who are letting software do all the work?

Do you get points for effort? If one works exclusively with digital photography, does it even matter if they know how to change film?




  
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Patrick
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May 20, 2012 08:53 as a reply to  @ harcosparky's post |  #774

Many, many people are satisfied with average, or even sub average results.

Look at how an increasingly large number people dress, eat, talk, or behave.

The reason people don't want to spend money on quality photographers is because they simply do not have any real discriminating taste.

This problem is not exclusive to photography.

Bravo to those photographers who are successful.


Bodies, Lenses, Lights, Stands, Transmitters, Receivers, Tripods, Meters, etc...

  
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Clean ­ Gene
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May 20, 2012 09:02 |  #775

Patrick wrote in post #14458529 (external link)
Many, many people are satisfied with average, or even sub average results.

Look at how an increasingly large number people dress, eat, talk, or behave.

The reason people don't want to spend money on quality photographers is because they simply do not have any real discriminating taste.

This problem is not exclusive to photography.

Bravo to those photographers who are successful.


That's often true, yes.

It's also often the case that people don't have the moneyto hire quality photographers.

And to repeat, technology doesn't make great photographs, people do. Being a "professional photographer" says nothing about one's skill or the quality of their work. So whenever I hear stuff like "I used to make lots of money as a professional photographer, but the money dried up once digital cameras became so popular", I start to wonder how good that photographer ever was in the first place.




  
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Bsmooth
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May 20, 2012 09:25 as a reply to  @ Clean Gene's post |  #776

Results whether they be from pros or amatuers are just that. I'm sure there are many amatuers that are terrific Photographers, that are nary ever heard from. many musicians have fallen into that particular place as well.
I'm certain there are many photographers out there who would love to have just 1 image seen and appreciated in a lifetime , than pros who would whos images are seen every week or day.
Why you may ask. Mostly confidence and the looming question, is it good enough.
Whereas I have seen images selling that really aren't that terrific. Ok there good technically, but the real reason there selling, is that they are actually out there being seen, and of course by reputation.
Matter of fact heres a plug, for someone, Ok you may or may not like HDR images(the mere mention probably has you going I'm not even interested)but take just a few moments and check there photostream out:
http://www.flickr.com/​photos/53359531n04/ (external link)
I'm not even going to give an opinion, all is to say is I appreciate what he's trying to do, and I like it.
When he started he had no website at all, not sure whether he's selling his images now or not, but I would consider him to be a budding amatuer.


Bruce

  
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JJD.Photography
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May 20, 2012 09:53 |  #777

The amateurs make my photos shine that much more :lol:

BTW > I am also an amateur!


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JJD.Photography
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May 20, 2012 09:56 |  #778

Bsmooth wrote in post #14458633 (external link)
but take just a few moments and check there photostream out:
http://www.flickr.com/​photos/53359531n04/ (external link)

That's an amazing stream of images!!


His And Her Photographs (external link)
flickr (external link)

  
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watt100
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May 20, 2012 10:04 |  #779

Bsmooth wrote in post #14458633 (external link)
Matter of fact heres a plug, for someone, Ok you may or may not like HDR images(the mere mention probably has you going I'm not even interested)but take just a few moments and check there photostream out:
http://www.flickr.com/​photos/53359531n04/ (external link)

wow, Thomas Kinkade is back among the living!




  
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Karl ­ C
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May 20, 2012 10:47 |  #780

Ross J wrote in post #13773593 (external link)
That's right. Working for awhile on the inside, like assisting, is becoming a rare experience and therefore is more connected to the individual. Meanwhile, online education and cheap digital gear is available to everybody so it is connected to the group. Any person that wants to go pro has gotta find a way to extricate himself from the group, so things like assisting are a good way of helping him to accomplish the task.

I've read through most of this thread - some interesting, thought-provoking posts.

I'm self-taught; never enrolled in a formal photography class or possess a college degree in photography. At this stage of my life (age 46), going back to school full-time to earn a degree in photography is out of the question. So, currently, I'm taking an online class to help improve my "vision" and skill. I am planning on enrolling in two more classes to help better my education in flash photography and learn more about architectural photography. Yes, I could read and learn from Strobist for flash photography, and probably learn about architectural work from various web fora and books. The only reason I am taking online classes is to learn in a structured environment from instructors who are also professionals; people earning their living from photography in the respective field of the class subject.

Now, having said all of that, here is my question for the group (since Ross J is no long welcome here):

Does taking on online class make me part of the "group", as opposed to learning photography through a traditional educational institution?

Maybe my question is rhetorical in nature as I'm learning more about photography and my abilities in the manner (and format) best suited for my position in life at the moment. I do agree with the sentiment of working as an assistant for a successful photographer; it's a great training environment and can only help. Unfortunately, in today's world, finding a photographer looking for an assistant, and who is willing to take on an assistant, is the challenge. You could say there is market oversaturation of folks wanting to be assistants.

As for the context of this thread, I think there is a market for everyone, in some respects. The CL wedding photographer selling their services for $500 has a market. The higher-end wedding photographer has a market. Folks like airfrogusmc have their market.

However, the one critical take-away we should all take from this thread, especially those interested in becoming full-time photographers, is market differentiation. How are you setting yourself apart from the competition? If you're struggling in your business, what are you doing to improve and differentiate yourself?

The questions I posted in the above paragraph were rhetorical - meant only to provoke internal thoughts regarding how to take yourself to the next level.

In the end, if I were a full-time photographer, I would be more concerned about the product I'm delivering to my customers (the best possible product) than what others are doing. Yes, as a business owner, you need to be aware of the competition - the competition who are engaged doing the same thing you're doing - full-time photographers; not the folks who shoot for fun or are happy earning a few bucks on the side.

Anyway, interesting discussion.


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