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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 27 May 2012 (Sunday) 19:51
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I think I am done...

 
CountryBoy
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May 28, 2012 00:42 |  #16

TooManyShots wrote in post #14493689 (external link)
That's not the issues..... The issue is that you got cheap customers saturating the cheap market. How can a 14 year old compete with a paying pros???? Is this kid shooting with over $10k of L lenses and pro bodies? And couple of grands of lighting equipment? Can a 14 year old kid establish a trusting relationship with a potential client? This thread is so wrong on so many levels....:)

The thing is , you don't need all that anymore , to get great images .


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lensfreak
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May 28, 2012 00:45 |  #17

I see in my local area, that it doesn't matter how wealthy the client is they, still pay on lowest price. There is a guy who is doing $600 jobs for $200. He is cutting down the pros and believe it or not, the customers don't care. They just want low price or FREE work. There are retail shops now that shoot their own product photography, parents that shoot their own family portraits. WHY? Because YouTube, google and canon/Nikon sales division made it all possible. The position of a photographer has so lost its importance that anyone and everyone is now a photographer. The countless online tutorials, mobile camera apps, cheap kits, the need to be someone is now reality. Like I said before about medical specialists, who is next? Mechanics, plumbers, it won't stop as long as prices are low. I wanted an slr many many years ago, I didnt buy one due to the high price. Now people can get 550d for next to nothing and shoot concert photos for free just for the thrill which in turn takes a job away from a pro shooter. I know this because I put in for several artist concerts and the agency said do it for free now or we are not interested as we can get anyone who will do it for free. They don't care, it's all about cheap cheap cheap......or FREE

If you are working round the clock as a photographer then, good luck and best wishes. As far as small photogs buying great glass and top class bodies, it's gunna get harder and harder to get a job. Unless you goto bed with some CEO. Yes, know a few people in business who got somewhere by being in the right place conveniently. Wink wink nudge nidge




  
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nicksan
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May 28, 2012 00:59 |  #18

shayneyasinski wrote in post #14492996 (external link)
Paid work is hard to get since 14 year olds and people just wanting to learn will do it for nothing.

Entry has become very easy. I am sure "14 year olds" is sort of a figure of speech, but I get you. But as others have said, if a regular Joe with a camera, and I am not talking about real hobbyists, take away paid work from you, then it's time to look in the mirror and re-assess the situation, which is what I think you are doing.

shayneyasinski wrote in post #14492996 (external link)
I always enjoyed shooting and only bought a camera to do this for myself but was asked a few times to do weddings and other events so I invested in some better gear to do them. my biggest issue are the people who have stepped in my way to take my paid work and do it for nothing only to produce poor pictures for my past clients and for my past clients to want me back but to do it for less.

So you were kind of that guy...a GWC, right? Then you decided to take on weddings and other events. Again, if you are losing work to the GWC, then it's time to re-assess. You also need to ask the question "Do I really want those clients?".

shayneyasinski wrote in post #14492996 (external link)
A few weeks ago I was the best man at my friends wedding, the photog had us at the park and one of the relatives pulls out his $599 kit and starts shooting, I stop him and say that we are here to get our shots covered by the pro and to not confuse us and have us looking at you instead of the pro I ask if you can put your camera away.
after the shoot she thanked me for doing what I did and how so many have freaked on her in that situation.

Cameras, even DSLRs, are a fact of life at weddings, at least in my neck of the woods it is. It's a futile attempt to stop people from taking photos. I shot a wedding on Saturday. During the group shots, I had no less than 10-15 people along side me with their various cameras and devices shooting away. Didn't bother me any. I'm am sooooooo used to it.




  
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drmaxx
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May 28, 2012 01:49 |  #19

nicksan wrote in post #14494112 (external link)
I shot a wedding on Saturday. During the group shots, I had no less than 10-15 people along side me with their various cameras and devices shooting away. Didn't bother me any. I'm am sooooooo used to it.

Thats what I call a professional attitude!

I don't quite understand the discussion here. The ability to perform under any needed circumstance and to deliver reliably high quality pictures requires experience and is not something the proverbial '14 old' can do.

I am a ambitious amateur. I can produce good pictures - but not reliably. Especially under difficult conditions there is a good chance that I mess up. Just missing a few thousand hours of experience here. Nothing I can get with good gear. But something I definitely expect from a pro!

If a customer does not care about that then he's basically just paying somebody to carry a camera. Nothing wrong here, but also nothing a photographer should try to compete against.


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shayneyasinski
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May 28, 2012 02:56 |  #20

no matter how good you are someone feels that you are charging too much and want your job and to do it for less .
I sell a product that people just pay what I ask but that product has nothing to do with photos.


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FlyingPhotog
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May 28, 2012 03:03 |  #21

CountryBoy wrote in post #14494052 (external link)
The thing is , you don't need all that anymore , to get great images .

You do in order to make great images on demand regardless of the situation or conditions.

Not every shoot can take place at dusk under a partly cloudy sky as a giant softbox. Give me the proper tools though and I can make it look just like that at any hour of the day or night.

Your average GWC is screwed under less than perfect conditions. One problem is that most of them don't have the stones to say no and they flame making the entire industry suspect.


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CountryBoy
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May 28, 2012 06:12 |  #22

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #14494392 (external link)
You do in order to make great images on demand regardless of the situation or conditions.

Not every shoot can take place at dusk under a partly cloudy sky as a giant softbox. Give me the proper tools though and I can make it look just like that at any hour of the day or night.

Your average GWC is screwed under less than perfect conditions. One problem is that most of them don't have the stones to say no and they flame making the entire industry suspect.

No one really doesn't . Many are doing it with lesser gear then you suggest .


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Kronie
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May 28, 2012 06:37 |  #23

CountryBoy wrote in post #14494710 (external link)
No one really doesn't . Many are doing it with lesser gear then you suggest .

They really are, at least around here for me. I have been to countless weddings and events in the last 5+ years and the "pros" just aren't using high end gear like that. Maybe two events I went to where I saw higher end gear and they were big fancy events...

You really dont need 10+K of gear to go out and take perfectly acceptable images for clients that are only going top print it 10x12 at the largest. No regular client can tell the difference. As a business owner you look at the bottom line, if you can get the same results with a 40D and a 85mm then you can with a 5D2 (or 3 now) and an 85L, than you take the cheaper option.

My area here (at least craigslist) is saturated with photographers looking to build there portfolio and work cheap. That's one reason I stick to doing fine art work and do a gallery show once a year or so. I feel that competing with these people is a race to the bottom and honestly I HATE shooting events.




  
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Bosscat
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May 28, 2012 07:05 |  #24

lensfreak wrote in post #14494062 (external link)
I see in my local area, that it doesn't matter how wealthy the client is they, still pay on lowest price. There is a guy who is doing $600 jobs for $200. He is cutting down the pros and believe it or not, the customers don't care. They just want low price or FREE work.

I have seen people that own their own companies and could easily afford to pay for prints, and I had prints already printed, yet they wanted me to display them online instead, so they could print them at home. I had a person that is a apartner in an accounting firm complain when they couldn't take a small print to Costco and have it scanned for an enlargement.

Digital has changed the way people value photography today.


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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TooManyShots
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May 28, 2012 07:09 |  #25
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Bosscat wrote in post #14494791 (external link)
I have seen people that own their own companies and could easily afford to pay for prints, and I had prints already printed, yet they wanted me to display them online instead, so they could print them at home. I had a person that is a apartner in an accounting firm complain when they couldn't take a small print to Costco and have it scanned for an enlargement.

Digital has changed the way people value photography today.

In this case, you charge higher for your digital files than your prints... I don't sell a lot of prints. Most of the sales are for digital files, which ultimately, my clients ending up putting them on Facebook.


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Karl ­ C
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May 28, 2012 08:34 |  #26

There's a reason why the term "starving artist" was coined. My suggestion to the OP and others is read about well-known photographers such as Stieglitz and Weston. They certainly didn't get rich as photographers; in fact, my impression is they and many of their contemporaries struggled most of their lives to make ends meet as photographers (credit to airfrogusmc for pointing me in the direction of reading about earlier photographers).

Kronie wrote in post #14494752 (external link)
My area here (at least craigslist) is saturated with photographers looking to build there portfolio and work cheap. That's one reason I stick to doing fine art work and do a gallery show once a year or so. I feel that competing with these people is a race to the bottom and honestly I HATE shooting events.

Agreed - I tend to lean more toward fine art myself, mostly for my own stuff, and want to pursue one avenue of photography that's not weddings, portraits, or events. The details aren't important - hopefully, my idea will pan out.

I think the following analogy is comparable to this situation - photography and those seeking to earn a living from it are akin to the guys who want to be MLB players. Only a select few make it to the majors; a large majority never even make it to Triple-A and some never even make it out of the college levels. At the end of the day, not everyone has what it takes to be a professional photographer; and by use of "professional", I mean photographers who can consistently and reliably produce results day in and day out, under all conditions, and under pressure and deadlines. To me that is the definition of a "professional".

So don't worry about GWC's; learn and improve your skill to the level you can consistently delivery quality results. Focus on clientele who do appreciate quality work and paying for those results.


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Bosscat
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May 28, 2012 08:38 |  #27

TooManyShots wrote in post #14494798 (external link)
In this case, you charge higher for your digital files than your prints... I don't sell a lot of prints. Most of the sales are for digital files, which ultimately, my clients ending up putting them on Facebook.

I can point you to a shooter that sells files for something in the neighbourhood of about a dollar a file.

People will take the low cost option more often then not because as I have said before, the averge consumer only cares that they are in the photo, not about depth of field, boken, framing or composition.


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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nicksan
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May 28, 2012 08:56 |  #28

shayneyasinski wrote in post #14494376 (external link)
no matter how good you are someone feels that you are charging too much and want your job and to do it for less .
I sell a product that people just pay what I ask but that product has nothing to do with photos.

I realize sometimes you just don't have a choice, but you can also choose which clients you work with. You don't want hagglers as clients. You don't want people who don't appreciate your work as clients. You want clients who picked you b/c they specifically liked your style and not b/c they thought you were pretty good and fit within their budget.

Regardless, there will always be folks who feel you charge too much, clients and GWC alike. IMHO, no loss there. If the client wants to hire the GWC on the cheap, then hey, do you really want that client? I don't.




  
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nicksan
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May 28, 2012 08:59 |  #29

Bosscat wrote in post #14495055 (external link)
People will take the low cost option more often then not because as I have said before, the averge consumer only cares that they are in the photo, not about depth of field, boken, framing or composition.

And the trick is to find those clients who do care about better photos and picked you b/c they saw something in your photo. Some of the more technical aspects might have something to do with how your photos look.




  
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cmonroe
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May 28, 2012 09:44 |  #30

I have been earning money for the past 4 years with photography. Am I a pro? That topic is highly debated on here and many forums. I shoot portraits and sporting events for customers. I rent lenses when I need to. The gear is accessible. As such I have been asked to do a few weddings. I refuse. Of course I would like to make a few thousand dollars on a wedding, but it, in my opinion requires more than gear. Photography is my second job. Shooting a wedding requires experience that I am not comfortable with yet. Do I think I could do it? Probably. But I am not going to take money from someone until I'm sure I can deliver the product they should expect. Make a dollar and undermine fellow pros and my own credibility. I don't think so. Although many other "pros" have no problem with that. I can't stomach the thought.


Craig Monroe
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