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FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Sports 
Thread started 07 Jul 2012 (Saturday) 21:46
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Jacoby Ellsbury on the road to Boston

 
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Jul 10, 2012 18:59 |  #31

kenjancef wrote in post #14698926 (external link)
As far as I can recall, they haven't been in the postseason since 2009...

that was a question to which I already knew the answer ;-)a


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Jul 10, 2012 20:00 |  #32

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14685628 (external link)
I'm tired of seeing his dunkin donuts commercials all the time knowing he has played so little for the red sox in the past 2 years. :(

Codda wrote in post #14688898 (external link)
Huh....? Should have won league MVP last year... 2011...32 HR 105 RB 39 SB in 168 games...

I meant 3 years. Jacoby has played in 183 out of a possible 410 regular season games in the past 3 seasons. 18 in 2010, 158 in 2011, and 7 in 2012 so far. I agree he should have won MVP last year, but playing in less than 45% of all possible games since 2010 is very minimal, so when seeing him ALL THE TIME on commercials THIS YEAR is a bit strange. Also, Bobby Valentine who is the current Red Sox manager is in those commercials, but the two of them have only been together a grand total of 7 real games in their life. ... Just sayin...


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Jul 10, 2012 20:12 |  #33

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14690213 (external link)
This is not true...I shoot on my own all the time - go out and practice, try different things, etc. etc. However, nobody is getting those images free! Never been paid to shoot political events or touristy stuff in my life - but yet have images I could put a portfolio together if need be because went out and shot them on my own. My SportsShooter profile is a political event from last year (yes it needs an update), wasn't paid a dime to be there and did it to learn those events after watching a great documentary called the Presidents Photographer (oh to have half the knowledge he has!)...however they were used by several TV Channels over the last year since, all paid. So shot on my own, nobody used free, got paid anyways for my practice as was not handing them over free.

There's getting paid and there's a money grab. You seem to be one of those people who wont' pick his camera up unless there's money involved and that's fine, but we don't all have to be that way. You do have to build up a portfolio initially and it's ok if you don't get paid doing it. You seem to have all these hard and fast rules, but it's a fluid situation out there. I also don't buy into the 'he's taking a job from a paying photog' line. The OP has taken the intiative, if there's a pro photog out there who should have the job instead, why didn't THEY take the initiative?


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Jul 10, 2012 20:20 |  #34

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14699237 (external link)
I meant 3 years. Jacoby has played in 183 out of a possible 486 regular season games in the past 3 seasons. 18 in 2010, 158 in 2011, and 7 in 2012 so far. I agree he should have won MVP last year, but playing in less than 38% of all possible games since 2010 is very minimal, so when seeing him ALL THE TIME on commercials THIS YEAR is a bit strange. Also, Bobby Valentine who is the current Red Sox manager is in those commercials, but the two of them have only been together a grand total of 7 real games in their life. ... Just sayin...

Your math-logic is flawed.... you're assuming he won't play more than 7 in 2012 based on the numbers given...


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Jul 10, 2012 20:43 |  #35

SMP_Homer wrote in post #14699324 (external link)
Your math-logic is flawed.... you're assuming he won't play more than 7 in 2012 based on the numbers given...

oops, I forgot to subtract half of the 2012 season from the overall potential games... edited in previous post now. :) He has played 7 out of a possible 86 games so far in 2012.


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Jul 10, 2012 20:49 |  #36

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14699394 (external link)
oops, I forgot to subtract half of the 2012 season from the overall potential games... edited in previous post now. :) He has played 7 out of a possible 86 games so far in 2012.

But, and to give Ellsbury some credit, it's not like his injury this year was his fault. Not like he pulled a groin or something...


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Jul 10, 2012 20:53 |  #37

Yeah, they have been freak accidents... having a teammate crash into him in the outfield hurting his ribs among other things, and sliding into 2nd (I believe) hurting his shoulder...

He's not carl crawford... that dude just keeps getting hurt trying to rehab. I swear he's just out of shape.


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Jul 10, 2012 21:07 |  #38

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14699437 (external link)
Yeah, they have been freak accidents... having a teammate crash into him in the outfield hurting his ribs among other things, and sliding into 2nd (I believe) hurting his shoulder...

He's not carl crawford... that dude just keeps getting hurt trying to rehab. I swear he's just out of shape.

Now there is somebody worth dumping on.


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Jul 10, 2012 21:16 |  #39

madjack wrote in post #14699506 (external link)
Now there is somebody worth dumping on.

I hear that... He was actually a day ahead of Ellsbury in rehab before he pulled a groin...


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Jul 10, 2012 21:39 |  #40

elrey2375 wrote in post #14699289 (external link)
There's getting paid and there's a money grab. You seem to be one of those people who wont' pick his camera up unless there's money involved and that's fine, but we don't all have to be that way. You do have to build up a portfolio initially and it's ok if you don't get paid doing it. You seem to have all these hard and fast rules, but it's a fluid situation out there. I also don't buy into the 'he's taking a job from a paying photog' line. The OP has taken the intiative, if there's a pro photog out there who should have the job instead, why didn't THEY take the initiative?

I look at it this way: I LOVE photography, and I LOVE going to PawSox games. I live 15 minutes away, and it's the best baseball in my area, since the Boston Red Sox pertty much suck this year.... So, I'd want to take pictures anyway, and up until I got a media pass I was paying my own way in, which I'd do anyway. So why not practice/experiment anyway? I'm learning and building a prospective portfolio at the same time. Am I looking to take over as their team photographer? Hell no... they have 2 already. But now I get to learn from them, and get decent media access at the same time.

Same with NASCAR. This will be my 9th year in a row going to Loudon, NH for the September race. I'm already going to be there, so why not take my gear and shoot what I can? The last NASCAR race, as well as some local races, got me into a Motorsports media group that has some of the best race photographers as members.

I'm taking baby steps, but ultimately would love to be a paid photographer, just like the rest of us who aren't. This might not be the best path to some, but it's the path for me right now.


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Jul 11, 2012 00:37 |  #41

Man am I glad I never got into sports shooting like I wanted to, it's definitely a tough profession. Don't get me wrong I wanted to, I was shooting as much as I could between horse shows/baseball/MMA/and rugby. It wasn't easy finding outfits that would let me practice as all of the schools around had either signed with Lifetouch or MaxPreps but they're out there.

By the time I got done with classes and was speaking with people in the field I decided it wasn't for me. Far to many folks seemed to all at once think because they just got a camera that they can change lenses on they'll become "Pros" overnight. Kind of like that lady on youtube that thinks that P on the mode dial should stand for professional.

I honestly wish anyone trying to become a pro sports tog these days the best of luck because it doesn't seem like these overnight pros are going anywhere anytime soon.


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Jul 11, 2012 01:17 as a reply to  @ 20DNewbie's post |  #42

Ive never tried sports photography so I cant speak from experience in that field, but it seems to me that its about the same way in a lot of professions. Your always going to have your wannabe-fly-by
-nights that for whatever reason thought it would be cool, fun, easy, or somebody told them they were good. But they found out its a grind and takes work and split.

Then you have the people with passion. Those who give it their all because they dig what they are doing. They work hard, ask questions, and connect with the right people.

And with perserverance, a little luck, and a bunch of time they eventually get there. Rightfully deserved.


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Jul 11, 2012 03:38 |  #43

elrey2375 wrote in post #14699289 (external link)
There's getting paid and there's a money grab. You seem to be one of those people who wont' pick his camera up unless there's money involved and that's fine, but we don't all have to be that way. You do have to build up a portfolio initially and it's ok if you don't get paid doing it. You seem to have all these hard and fast rules, but it's a fluid situation out there. I also don't buy into the 'he's taking a job from a paying photog' line. The OP has taken the intiative, if there's a pro photog out there who should have the job instead, why didn't THEY take the initiative?

You should maybe read what you quote before responding to it, said that I shoot for myself all the time. HOWEVER, if anyone wants to use it they are going to pay. If I go to a youth sports game to build my portfolio in a different sport and a parent wants to buy prints or get the file am I going to hand it over free because I'm there initially to build my portfolio, no that's bad business and only sets the standard for more free work. Sure I went to shoot free and try something new, update my port, whatever the case not expecting money - but why would you let someone else make a gain off your work even though it was not a paid assignment? (Charity excluded)

I do have hard and fast rules a bit, with slight leeway because sometimes there's exceptions to the rules based off years of doing this as a full time profession and working in the business through changes that put many people out of business. Made plenty of mistakes and learned from them, and that's where the rules come from, actually living through them and growing from them. That's why you post on boards like this, trying to help others not make the same mistakes that set you back!

Now you just graduated and know it all, we've gone over this before, but you'll find out it's very simple - you stick to the rules that work and will help you grow as a business and photographer or you won't be doing this very long. Why does everyone new always make excuses for doing bad business practices? It seems if you're new you can do horrible businesses practices and it's OK because you're "learning". You can learn, grow, and perform good practices all at once amazingly. I only wish had a board like this and some others out there to learn from when starting out, they may of existed but the guy I learned from most can not remember one good piece of advice at all - that's bad. You work free and say it opens up doors, it can sometimes in some rare instances, but personally prefer to work smarter and work for pay and open up doors. Work smarter, not harder would be the catch phrase for this.

As for the other photographer taking the initiative, again you should probably know what you're talking about before responding. PawSox have one of the best baseball photographers around, he's produced top quality work for 20+ years, well respected and one of the best people you could meet - even had one company name a series of baseball cards after him! 20+ years he's taken the initiative and always one of the best year in and year out. So exactly what initiative does it take for someone to come in and undercut that guy by working for free? Anyone who calls that initiative I seriously feel sorry for and they deserve what they get when they are undercut and lose jobs to people taking the same "initiative", luckily those people usually do not last very long.

Just to be clear, not saying that's happening in this case in particular as it's a different outlet, but just an example. Though that client does pay some, not others, and know first hand lost sales because of someone shooting free for them in a different city. So yes, photographers do lose sales and money no matter what initiative they take. Thing is if they do that they're not much of a client and just drives you not to work with them and stick to the ones that treat you right.

kenjancef wrote in post #14699641 (external link)
I look at it this way: I LOVE photography, and I LOVE going to PawSox games. I live 15 minutes away, and it's the best baseball in my area, since the Boston Red Sox pertty much suck this year.... So, I'd want to take pictures anyway, and up until I got a media pass I was paying my own way in, which I'd do anyway. So why not practice/experiment anyway? I'm learning and building a prospective portfolio at the same time. Am I looking to take over as their team photographer? Hell no... they have 2 already. But now I get to learn from them, and get decent media access at the same time.

Same with NASCAR. This will be my 9th year in a row going to Loudon, NH for the September race. I'm already going to be there, so why not take my gear and shoot what I can? The last NASCAR race, as well as some local races, got me into a Motorsports media group that has some of the best race photographers as members.

I'm taking baby steps, but ultimately would love to be a paid photographer, just like the rest of us who aren't. This might not be the best path to some, but it's the path for me right now.

I blame the outlet more than the photographer when starting out, they take advantage of fans who enjoy going to the game and taking photos knowing very well they are just using the person for their gain and it's not leading anywhere. Very rare case does a photographer finally step up and demand payment and gets it, usually they just move on to the next fan (or intern) with camera and take advantage of them - see it every year at parks all around the country. The first thought is always the same, only hurting themselves and they don't get yet how it's not a foot in the door - in fact it usually has the opposite outcome. Here's one editors view...

"Another thing that immediately tells me that I don’t want to work with someone is if they say, “Give me a pass and I’ll shoot you a game for free.” That may seem odd, but if you offer to work for free, that tells me that you’re not professional. It shows no respect for their photography. If you’re looking for practice, go shoot some high school games."

It really comes down to do you want to work or just shoot as a hobby. If it's work I honestly think people can do it in a smarter and much more professional way than letting third parties use your images free or trading images for access. When I'm handed business cards and they tell me they're shooting free for a third party, directly to the trash that card goes (OK, recycling bin).

1) Ask yourself what you want to shoot? (sports, weddings, events, PJ)

2) Ask yourself if you want to only cover that sport/level/area? (hard to limit)

3) Research who covers what you want to shoot? (newspapers, magazines, etc)

4) Research some more and find out about who covers what you want to shoot. In other words after you find out who covers that you then find out about them...do they offer good deals, can you make money off it, what rights do they want, who are their clients if an agency, is it worth it, etc. May even be spec based, which is a whole different argument as some do very well with it and others not so much, but better than allowing usage for credit - least your practice isn't getting used free for someone else's advantage.

5) Put a portfolio together without undercutting yourself and the business.

6) Present that portfolio keeping it updated until you do find some clients and build.

7) Repeat steps 3-6.


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Jul 11, 2012 22:05 |  #44

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14700595 (external link)
You should maybe read what you quote before responding to it, said that I shoot for myself all the time. HOWEVER, if anyone wants to use it they are going to pay. If I go to a youth sports game to build my portfolio in a different sport and a parent wants to buy prints or get the file am I going to hand it over free because I'm there initially to build my portfolio, no that's bad business and only sets the standard for more free work. Sure I went to shoot free and try something new, update my port, whatever the case not expecting money - but why would you let someone else make a gain off your work even though it was not a paid assignment? (Charity excluded)

I do have hard and fast rules a bit, with slight leeway because sometimes there's exceptions to the rules based off years of doing this as a full time profession and working in the business through changes that put many people out of business. Made plenty of mistakes and learned from them, and that's where the rules come from, actually living through them and growing from them. That's why you post on boards like this, trying to help others not make the same mistakes that set you back!

Now you just graduated and know it all, we've gone over this before, but you'll find out it's very simple - you stick to the rules that work and will help you grow as a business and photographer or you won't be doing this very long. Why does everyone new always make excuses for doing bad business practices? It seems if you're new you can do horrible businesses practices and it's OK because you're "learning". You can learn, grow, and perform good practices all at once amazingly. I only wish had a board like this and some others out there to learn from when starting out, they may of existed but the guy I learned from most can not remember one good piece of advice at all - that's bad. You work free and say it opens up doors, it can sometimes in some rare instances, but personally prefer to work smarter and work for pay and open up doors. Work smarter, not harder would be the catch phrase for this.

As for the other photographer taking the initiative, again you should probably know what you're talking about before responding. PawSox have one of the best baseball photographers around, he's produced top quality work for 20+ years, well respected and one of the best people you could meet - even had one company name a series of baseball cards after him! 20+ years he's taken the initiative and always one of the best year in and year out. So exactly what initiative does it take for someone to come in and undercut that guy by working for free? Anyone who calls that initiative I seriously feel sorry for and they deserve what they get when they are undercut and lose jobs to people taking the same "initiative", luckily those people usually do not last very long.

Just to be clear, not saying that's happening in this case in particular as it's a different outlet, but just an example. Though that client does pay some, not others, and know first hand lost sales because of someone shooting free for them in a different city. So yes, photographers do lose sales and money no matter what initiative they take. Thing is if they do that they're not much of a client and just drives you not to work with them and stick to the ones that treat you right.

I blame the outlet more than the photographer when starting out, they take advantage of fans who enjoy going to the game and taking photos knowing very well they are just using the person for their gain and it's not leading anywhere. Very rare case does a photographer finally step up and demand payment and gets it, usually they just move on to the next fan (or intern) with camera and take advantage of them - see it every year at parks all around the country. The first thought is always the same, only hurting themselves and they don't get yet how it's not a foot in the door - in fact it usually has the opposite outcome. Here's one editors view...

"Another thing that immediately tells me that I don’t want to work with someone is if they say, “Give me a pass and I’ll shoot you a game for free.” That may seem odd, but if you offer to work for free, that tells me that you’re not professional. It shows no respect for their photography. If you’re looking for practice, go shoot some high school games."

It really comes down to do you want to work or just shoot as a hobby. If it's work I honestly think people can do it in a smarter and much more professional way than letting third parties use your images free or trading images for access. When I'm handed business cards and they tell me they're shooting free for a third party, directly to the trash that card goes (OK, recycling bin).

1) Ask yourself what you want to shoot? (sports, weddings, events, PJ)

2) Ask yourself if you want to only cover that sport/level/area? (hard to limit)

3) Research who covers what you want to shoot? (newspapers, magazines, etc)

4) Research some more and find out about who covers what you want to shoot. In other words after you find out who covers that you then find out about them...do they offer good deals, can you make money off it, what rights do they want, who are their clients if an agency, is it worth it, etc. May even be spec based, which is a whole different argument as some do very well with it and others not so much, but better than allowing usage for credit - least your practice isn't getting used free for someone else's advantage.

5) Put a portfolio together without undercutting yourself and the business.

6) Present that portfolio keeping it updated until you do find some clients and build.

7) Repeat steps 3-6.

That was a general statement for the most part. The OP is obviously not taking a paying job away from anyone, so you've proved that point correct. I'm not saying you should give your work away. If someone wants to use it, they should pay, we agree on that. I'm simply saying that as you're building your portfolio, you can't expect to make money every time out.

I agree with this on principle, but sometimes you will get passed over for someone who will do it for free starting out. Obviously, you could make the point that you probably wouldn't want to work with an organization that would do that, but depending on your area, there might not be a lot of choice in the matter if you're trying to get your name out there. I can't spend principle, sadly, and with the economy like it is, it's getting harder and harder out there, not easier.


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MJPhotos24
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Jul 12, 2012 00:25 |  #45

elrey2375 wrote in post #14704627 (external link)
That was a general statement for the most part. The OP is obviously not taking a paying job away from anyone, so you've proved that point correct. I'm not saying you should give your work away. If someone wants to use it, they should pay, we agree on that. I'm simply saying that as you're building your portfolio, you can't expect to make money every time out.

I agree with this on principle, but sometimes you will get passed over for someone who will do it for free starting out. Obviously, you could make the point that you probably wouldn't want to work with an organization that would do that, but depending on your area, there might not be a lot of choice in the matter if you're trying to get your name out there. I can't spend principle, sadly, and with the economy like it is, it's getting harder and harder out there, not easier.

Photographer doesn't work for free for said outlet - outlet has no images coming in free, how do they obtain them? They buy from their usual image servers and pay for them (photographer or agency), so really someone is not getting paid because of it. It's the old argument if nobody works for free they have to start paying, problem is of course you will never get everyone to stop working for free - there are WAY too many people who do it for ego to see their name in print instead of trying to practice good business.

Choice, there is always a choice! I shot a game tonight with a bunch of guys shooting free, two of these idiots have cost me somewhere around a grand so far this year giving stuff away to clients I work with, or undercutting taking jobs that they came running in last second to do it free. Both use the same tired argument of getting their name out there - success, they're names are on several editors "DO NOT WORK WITH" list including ours. It all comes back to the same thing, good vs bad business practices.

Don't think it matters one bit on your location, if the local team won't work with you because they have a different set up or you cost too much then you go to the next and the next, you hear no a lot more than you hear yes no matter how established you are. Can't get into that league, OK what else is out there, move on and find a niche while pushing for what you want without hurting your name or the business. Sometimes of course you have to start at the lowest rung and climb your way up, just like most industries, photographers though always seem to think they bought a camera, had kinko's make a card, so they should be getting into all the events the pros shoot.

So yea, there's always a choice, it may not be the choice you want to make - it seems many think youth and high school sports are below them, but you pay your dues or find your own clients without snaking your way in. Doesn't mean you don't try to land clients who already have photographers, competition is not a bad thing, but you do it in a manner that is at the least professional.


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Jacoby Ellsbury on the road to Boston
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