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FORUMS News & Rumors Camera Rumors and Predictions 
Thread started 20 Jul 2012 (Friday) 02:25
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EOS M: M for Mirrorless

 
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ceremus
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Jul 21, 2012 00:26 |  #121

Yeah I mean, especially if you're talking about coverage for a full frame sensor, those lenses aren't getting any smaller. The 2.8 standard zooms, the 2.8 70-200s, the super telephotos, these things don't benefit from having a smaller camera with less space to have a solid grip on. Not to mention having a flash mounted on the hot shoe. Rebels are fine, but the bigger grips on the prosumer models are more comfortable, not to mention the pros will also being using a grip for portrait shooting, making the body bigger still.

Plus, I think Canon and Nikon will be making optical TTL viewfinders for a long time, simply because that's what the pros want and are used to having. They may offer a hybrid optical/electric finder like the Fuji, but I think it'll be some time before they abandon an OVF, if ever.


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gregnash
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Jul 21, 2012 19:56 |  #122

Wow the conversation died on this pretty quick...
I for one am excited to see what Canon's offering is in this particular market segment. They have held back, watched what people did with the m43 section and what the others like Sony and Nikon have done with the CSC items. I know that Canon has fallen flat before with some of their "new" offerings but I am hoping for a good one this time. Not necessarily a home-run, per say, but a solid triple would be great.

I, like many other users, have larger hands and the size of the 1Dx and the X0D with a grip feels perfect but what I do not like is the constant "package" you have to lug around. With my 20D showing that it is getting long in the tooth, I have been looking to move to something like the NEX with a manual Canon lens adapter but this, with the EF adapter would be stellar. Though the package may be small, and I am sure that for long extended use my hands would cramp up, that is not what I use my 20D for and thus would be better off with something like this.

And for everyone out there picking the "leaked" image apart, one caveat that you have to remember is that 80% of the time when these images get "leaked" they are not of the high end model. I would not be surprised if Canon also had an NEX-7/V1/XPro1 version to be released along side of the one we are seeing from CanonRumors or shortly there after.


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chumlee
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Jul 21, 2012 20:17 |  #123

Add a viewfinder and i would be a LOT more interested. I'm not one to hold the camera two feet out in front of my face to take a picture.


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XBGM3R
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Jul 21, 2012 20:41 |  #124

gratchie wrote in post #14745022 (external link)
this looks like a meh product to me. Can't wait for this mirrorless camera to be finally announced so that canon can concentrate on marketing their upcoming full frame instead ;)

I predict Canon will announce TWO different mirrorless camera models on 7/23/2012.


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HyperYagami
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Jul 21, 2012 21:28 |  #125

ceremus wrote in post #14747713 (external link)
Yeah I mean, especially if you're talking about coverage for a full frame sensor, those lenses aren't getting any smaller. The 2.8 standard zooms, the 2.8 70-200s, the super telephotos, these things don't benefit from having a smaller camera with less space to have a solid grip on.

The new 18-55mm is 43mm thread size, so it's already smaller than the old one even though both are APS-C. Therefore, there is room to shrink, even if it's just the barrel. None of us have an definite idea how much, for example, 70-200mm f/2.8 IS can shrink down to, but consider how they're exploring DO for 600mm/800mm and starting to make pencake lens, I won't be surprised if they can shrink it, no matter how much, and do it exclusively on EF-M. I hate to speculate what's possible what's not, as if I work in their R&D.

Remember, from Canon's point of view (i.e., business) there's absolutely NO reason not to move things over to EF-M, when the quality/performance/et​c catches up to the current EF/EF-S. Why not milk our money twice with something (presumably) better? And customers probably wouldn't want yet another product line (and this time around is 100% incompatible!) of lens. For instance, I can already see some would love to have that 22mm f/2 on EF-S.

This EF-M might not be perfect now, but it will catch up, lens-selection-wise and camera-wise. God bless us, with this we can finally see the end of focus-shift, front-focus, back-focus, etc etc with Canon.



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Luckypenguin
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Jul 22, 2012 01:40 |  #126

gregnash wrote in post #14750121 (external link)
Wow the conversation died on this pretty quick...

I think that the penny has finally dropped. Read through this thread and other similar threads and there are some recurring themes:

- Only want a mirrorless camera if it can use existing DSLR lenses
- Only want it if it has an EF lens mount
- Only want it if it has DSLR controls and layout
- Only want it if it has an eye level viewfinder

Off the top of my head I can think of one type of camera that matches all of the above criteria perfectly. It starts with D and ends in SLR...

If you're happy with what you've already got, why change? This type of camera won't suit everyone.


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edge100
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Jul 22, 2012 06:58 |  #127

Luckypenguin wrote in post #14751035 (external link)
I think that the penny has finally dropped. Read through this thread and other similar threads and there are some recurring themes:

- Only want a mirrorless camera if it can use existing DSLR lenses
- Only want it if it has an EF lens mount
- Only want it if it has DSLR controls and layout
- Only want it if it has an eye level viewfinder

Off the top of my head I can think of one type of camera that matches all of the above criteria perfectly. It starts with D and ends in SLR...

If you're happy with what you've already got, why change? This type of camera won't suit everyone.

Exactly.

If you want a DSLR, get one. I have two (and a few 35mm and 120 film SLRs, too), and they're great photographic tools, the main advantage of which is that they're versatile.

But DSLR systems (including high-quality lenses) are not small, light, easily portable, or low profile. And until now, there were very few digital systems that could provide excellent image quality and also be be small, light, portable, low profile, and be reasonably priced. But that's changing. APS-C can now provide outstanding image quality, with very few drawbacks.


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DreDaze
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Jul 22, 2012 12:51 |  #128

the specs now listed:
http://www.canonrumors​.com/2012/07/canon-eos-m-specs/ (external link)


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ceremus
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Jul 22, 2012 13:11 |  #129

HyperYagami wrote in post #14750379 (external link)
The new 18-55mm is 43mm thread size, so it's already smaller than the old one even though both are APS-C. Therefore, there is room to shrink, even if it's just the barrel. None of us have an definite idea how much, for example, 70-200mm f/2.8 IS can shrink down to, but consider how they're exploring DO for 600mm/800mm and starting to make pencake lens, I won't be surprised if they can shrink it, no matter how much, and do it exclusively on EF-M. I hate to speculate what's possible what's not, as if I work in their R&D.

...

My guess is that the weight of the lens is a big tell. The 18-55 is a featherlight lens, it's mostly plastic and not a whole lot of glass. I imagine it's relatively straightforward to trim it down to size a bit. But look at something like the 17-55 constant f/2.8 aperture. Even though the barrel is still mostly plastic that lens is at least 3x as heavy. If you look at the diagrams for the 18-55 (external link) and 17-55 (external link) it starts to become clear where the challenge is. It's not too difficult to drop a few mm on the 18-55, as long as there's still room for the front element. With the 17, although you could possibly trim down the body through the midsection you still have to deal with that enormous front element.

Or, just look at the existing mirrorless lenses out there, among the various manufacturers there are currently no fast zooms available. The m4/3 lenses are the most mature of the bunch, they only recently announced a 12-35mm f/2.8. That kind of lens is likely only feasible for their compact system because they have a smaller sensor to cover, so with their crop factor they can make a smaller, shorter, lighter lens that still has an apparent normal focal range. Sony's mirrorless NEX cameras though have a full 1.5x APS-C sensor to cover, and their lenses have always been bigger and bulkier, looking rather unbalanced on their compact cameras. I'd have to assume that if they made a constant aperture fast zoom those characteristics would only get worse, and there's no reason it would be any different for Canon.


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jacobsen1
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Jul 22, 2012 13:11 |  #130

Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm excited. I just hope they release a lens roadmap with this. But for me, as a NEX5 owner and OMD owner (and previous GF1 and X100 owner) I'm REALLY excited for it if it's <$1k and it really is APS-C. I just hope it's not the 7D's sensor recycled, I REALLY hope it's new from the ground up. I'll wait for some image samples to really judge, but my OMD beats the 7D pretty easily in ISOs and sharpness. Canon's AA filter was too strong on the 7D for the video guys, but hopefully that's NOT the goal here. This paired with the 22mm f/2 will get me what I'm getting from my OMD with the 20mm 1.7 (and what the X100 could do). Then add a 10-22 and I've got a HELL of a portable landscape kit. I just hope they have more lenses up their sleeve at least on paper though, because the complete lack of lenses on the NEX5 is what killed it for me. The 22 is a stop faster than my 16mm was on the NEX, but I'd like more speed if I could...


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jacobsen1
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Jul 22, 2012 13:17 |  #131

AngryCorgi wrote in post #14747109 (external link)
How upset will y'all be if the kit price of this cute little camera is $1000?? Remember the G1X was $800!

for $1k I'll sell my OMD and entire MFT kit for one, assuming the $1k included the 22 and hopefully an EF adapter...

Luckypenguin wrote in post #14747268 (external link)
I'd be surprised if the sensor in the G1X costs much less to make than the slightly bigger APS-C chip.

how much more is FF over APS-C though. It's about the same step in sensor size here as well.

ceremus wrote in post #14752528 (external link)
Sony's mirrorless NEX cameras though have a full 1.5x APS-C sensor to cover, and their lenses have always been bigger and bulkier, looking rather unbalanced on their compact cameras. I'd have to assume that if they made a constant aperture fast zoom those characteristics would only get worse, and there's no reason it would be any different for Canon.

sony messed up their flange back distance on the NEX to make the body itself very skinny. That meant the lenses HAD to be longer to work. Hopefully canon hasn't done that, but we won't know until we see that spec. Canon is starting with a damn near identical initial offering lens wise though with a pancake that's not too fast, a mid range zoom that's close to exactly the same and an adapter for their OEM lenses. As for faster zooms on MFT and the other EVIL systems, it's no impossible, it's just that the lenses get bigger than makes sense when the goal of the system is a smaller camera. Fast small primes is where it's at for these bodies, or variable zooms just to keep the package tiny. If you NEED fast zooms you're probably much more likely to be willing to take a DSLR with you. I've got 3 primes for me OMD (14mm, 20mm and 45mm) and 2 of those are fast. I much prefer that setup to a 24-70 (effective) 2.8 zoom that'd be much longer.


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ceremus
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Jul 22, 2012 13:23 |  #132

jacobsen1 wrote in post #14752530 (external link)
Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm excited. I just hope they release a lens roadmap with this. But for me, as a NEX5 owner and OMD owner (and previous GF1 and X100 owner) I'm REALLY excited for it if it's <$1k and it really is APS-C. I just hope it's not the 7D's sensor recycled, I REALLY hope it's new from the ground up.
...

All indications seem to point that the sensor is identical (or nearly so) as the hybrid AF T4i/650D sensor, which is pretty much all derivative of the 7D's original sensor. IQ-wise I wouldn't expect much of a shift...


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jacobsen1
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Jul 22, 2012 14:05 |  #133

my hope though, is that the soul sucking AA filter from the 7D has been removed. They put it in the 7D to make it an amazing video camera, but it kills that camera for landscape photography. I'm hoping they can pull a rabbit out of their hat ISO wise as well because the OMD is a MFT sensor that can EASILY beat the 7D in both sharpness AND noise handling... Then again, it's a sony sensor (which we'll never see in a canon) so I'm not surprised. I really want this body to work for me, but if the IQ isn't there I'm not leaving the OMD...


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Jul 22, 2012 14:21 |  #134

jacobsen1 wrote in post #14752714 (external link)
my hope though, is that the soul sucking AA filter from the 7D has been removed. They put it in the 7D to make it an amazing video camera, but it kills that camera for landscape photography. I'm hoping they can pull a rabbit out of their hat ISO wise as well because the OMD is a MFT sensor that can EASILY beat the 7D in both sharpness AND noise handling... Then again, it's a sony sensor (which we'll never see in a canon) so I'm not surprised. I really want this body to work for me, but if the IQ isn't there I'm not leaving the OMD...

if it's the same sensor that is in the t4i i'd think it's probably directed at video even more than the 7D sensor....not sure if that means much though...


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jacobsen1
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Jul 22, 2012 15:13 |  #135

is the t4i the same sensor as the 7D though? They're both 18mp APS-C sensors right? Was the t4i's actually redone?


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