Jacoby Ellsbury on the road to Boston

elrey2375 wrote in post #14724806
If I've been paid by a publication to shoot a sporting event and the university SID wants a shot for the website, yes, I've given it to them free of charge. I've already been paid once and I'm there BECAUSE the university has given permission. I don't see the problem. And I don't charge family.

You left out the other times you've previously stated on this board, but good try.

Give them away because they let you in, seriously? This is exactly what media outlets fight AGAINST, all the major sports and many minor ones have tried to put this in their credential agreement but every single time media outlets fight it because it's absolutely asinine to think as a photojournalist you have to hand over images for access!

You left out the fact the publication was the university making your posts confusing and what ajaffe is talking about. Originally your made it sound like a third party publication was hiring you, and since the university let you in for that publication you give them free images, this would be completely idiotic in my personal opinion for multiple reasons.

Something else you need to learn, you take people's personal opinions and try to make it sound like they are ordering someone around to do it this or that way, no it's personal opinions based off what they've done right/wrong and trying to help educate others. Ironic thing is while complaining about what others have to say in their personal opinions you always try to make it sound like your way is the right way doing the same thing!

elrey2375 wrote in post #14724841
Because people have an opinion on everything. And some people spend their life angry or upset or disappointed. It's sad, really. Nobody has the 'right' to a certain job. Nowhere does it say you get to have the job you've always dreamed of. As for taking job from people who do it for a living, cream usually rises to the top. If someone's work is of equal quality and they want to give it away, there really isn't anything you can do about it but come on a website like this and have the conversation we've been having for the past few pages.

Wow, you are one hell of a guy if you know how people are all because of how they reply in a thread with advice. Spending life angry, upset or disappointed and how sad it is...care to NAME one person in this thread that lives that way? Man up and start backing up your attempts at personal attacks from up there on the pedestal. Amazing!

Lastly, the cream does rise to the top and why some make a living doing it while others don't - that's capitalism. You think people accepting free images care about quality? In MANY cases, would say a vast majority, they do not care one bit about quality! Most will take bad to mediocre quality over exceptional just simply because it's free.

There is DEFINITELY something you can do about it...don't be one of those people, actually care about the industry and being a photojournalist, speak out and help educate. This goes with anything in life, you sit there and let it happen or you try to help and educate and share experience of good and bad while saying why they worked/didn't. Not about wanting to be involved, it's about letting a newbie college kid who knows nothing but thinks he knows it all that there's better ways out there, in other words avoiding the mistakes those who survived have already made, i.e. EXPERIENCE!

Good thing I live my life angry, upset, and disappointed.

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14732396
You left out the other times you've previously stated on this board, but good try.

Give them away because they let you in, seriously? This is exactly what media outlets fight AGAINST, all the major sports and many minor ones have tried to put this in their credential agreement but every single time media outlets fight it because it's absolutely asinine to think as a photojournalist you have to hand over images for access!

You left out the fact the publication was the university making your posts confusing and what ajaffe is talking about. Originally your made it sound like a third party publication was hiring you, and since the university let you in for that publication you give them free images, this would be completely idiotic in my personal opinion for multiple reasons.

Something else you need to learn, you take people's personal opinions and try to make it sound like they are ordering someone around to do it this or that way, no it's personal opinions based off what they've done right/wrong and trying to help educate others. Ironic thing is while complaining about what others have to say in their personal opinions you always try to make it sound like your way is the right way doing the same thing!

Wow, you are one hell of a guy if you know how people are all because of how they reply in a thread with advice. Spending life angry, upset or disappointed and how sad it is...care to NAME one person in this thread that lives that way? Man up and start backing up your attempts at personal attacks from up there on the pedestal. Amazing!

Lastly, the cream does rise to the top and why some make a living doing it while others don't - that's capitalism. You think people accepting free images care about quality? In MANY cases, would say a vast majority, they do not care one bit about quality! Most will take bad to mediocre quality over exceptional just simply because it's free.

There is DEFINITELY something you can do about it...don't be one of those people, actually care about the industry and being a photojournalist, speak out and help educate. This goes with anything in life, you sit there and let it happen or you try to help and educate and share experience of good and bad while saying why they worked/didn't. Not about wanting to be involved, it's about letting a newbie college kid who knows nothing but thinks he knows it all that there's better ways out there, in other words avoiding the mistakes those who survived have already made, i.e. EXPERIENCE!

You said a real mouthful there. Firstly, not a college kid. I am in college, but that's because I didn't finish. I've already had a career before this one, so I've been around the block before, but thanks for your concern. I don't live my life angry or any other way. What I do is state my opinion, what I don't do is give a fig whether you take it or not. I haven't personally attacked anyone. How you perceive my posts is entirely up to you. I'm a decent judge of people and my instincts have served me well up to this point. People aren't really that complicated when you get right down to it. There are less than a handful of base reasons why someone does any one thing at any given time.

I don't assume people are trying to order anyone to do anything. I'm simply stating my opinion. You've misconstrued it for something else. If the way you do things keeps a roof over your head, etc., then by all means, keep doing it that way.

You don't know everything, neither do I, never said I did. You know what works for you, it may or may not work for someone else. What I also don't do is take crap. Lots of people do, so when you run up against someone who doesn't, it can be shocking, I understand this. I can be the nicest guy you'll ever wanna meet, but that doesn't mean I get walked on. I'm not really interested in what's idiotic or not idiotic to you personally. I live in a nice house, drive a nice car and got what I have being exactly how I've always been. So while I appreciate your concern and help, there are others who could truly use it, don't waste your time on me.

P.S. I AM a hell of guy, thanks for noticing

elrey2375 wrote in post #14738005
You said a real mouthful there. Firstly, not a college kid. I am in college, but that's because I didn't finish. I've already had a career before this one, so I've been around the block before, but thanks for your concern. I don't live my life angry or any other way. What I do is state my opinion, what I don't do is give a fig whether you take it or not. I haven't personally attacked anyone. How you perceive my posts is entirely up to you. I'm a decent judge of people and my instincts have served me well up to this point. People aren't really that complicated when you get right down to it. There are less than a handful of base reasons why someone does any one thing at any given time.

I don't assume people are trying to order anyone to do anything. I'm simply stating my opinion. You've misconstrued it for something else. If the way you do things keeps a roof over your head, etc., then by all means, keep doing it that way.

You don't know everything, neither do I, never said I did. You know what works for you, it may or may not work for someone else. What I also don't do is take crap. Lots of people do, so when you run up against someone who doesn't, it can be shocking, I understand this. I can be the nicest guy you'll ever wanna meet, but that doesn't mean I get walked on. I'm not really interested in what's idiotic or not idiotic to you personally. I live in a nice house, drive a nice car and got what I have being exactly how I've always been. So while I appreciate your concern and help, there are others who could truly use it, don't waste your time on me.

P.S. I AM a hell of guy, thanks for noticing

You seriously need to take the blinders off, you have your opinion and don't care what others think...guess what, that's the problem right there! So many refuse to listen to others because they are stuck in their mindset and that's the only way they know.

My perception is taking your words exactly as you said them, and they were a personal attack to those posting just because the opinion is not exactly the same as what you are stuck in. Just because you didn't use a name for whatever reason the insinuation is there and not hard to figure out, how saying what you did is not personal is a just complete lie. That's fine, you will, just like the rest of us, have that enlightening moment someday.

Your last paragraph is simply comical though, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Do you think anyone cares what house you live in, what car you drive, or what you have? What does it really have to do with anything, did you get them from income through a successful photography business and that's it? If not then it's moot point because that's the point, giving advice on how to run a better business. I can name more than a few people with the same, of course it's their parents work or another job that got it all. Can't wait for your version of the Everett Swagger!

People don't have to take the advice from anyone word for word, they can adapt as how they see fit to their situation and how things work in their area...but you seem not to think that. People who've made mistakes, been there and done that, saw what works universally in different parts of the country, their advice means nothing because why? Right, got it all figured out already. In complete honesty this last paragraph only proves how much of a college kid you are still, even if not in age! However, I guess that's the problem today, people who need the help most do not realize it until it's too late. There's another long list, those seen come and go because they learned too late or not at all.

Seriously, you're not a big shot bad a$$ opponent that doesn't take crap! That was an "lol" moment for sure, thanks!! Not trying to "waste time" on you, but trying to give the opposing view to bad advice that you give, nothing more and nothing less.

MJPhotots24, he obviously has a different opinion than you. Seriously just let it go.
Ironic post of the week:

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14754531
people who need the help most do not realize it until it's too late.

Why do you care that elrey2375 does not agree with you? He obviously is doing well in life (which was his point by stating his personal gains in life) and does not have to listen and agree with you. You seem to believe that your way is the only way whether or not you realize it. Let it go.

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14754531
You seriously need to take the blinders off, you have your opinion and don't care what others think...guess what, that's the problem right there! So many refuse to listen to others because they are stuck in their mindset and that's the only way they know.

My perception is taking your words exactly as you said them, and they were a personal attack to those posting just because the opinion is not exactly the same as what you are stuck in. Just because you didn't use a name for whatever reason the insinuation is there and not hard to figure out, how saying what you did is not personal is a just complete lie. That's fine, you will, just like the rest of us, have that enlightening moment someday.

Your last paragraph is simply comical though, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Do you think anyone cares what house you live in, what car you drive, or what you have? What does it really have to do with anything, did you get them from income through a successful photography business and that's it? If not then it's moot point because that's the point, giving advice on how to run a better business. I can name more than a few people with the same, of course it's their parents work or another job that got it all. Can't wait for your version of the Everett Swagger!

People don't have to take the advice from anyone word for word, they can adapt as how they see fit to their situation and how things work in their area...but you seem not to think that. People who've made mistakes, been there and done that, saw what works universally in different parts of the country, their advice means nothing because why? Right, got it all figured out already. In complete honesty this last paragraph only proves how much of a college kid you are still, even if not in age! However, I guess that's the problem today, people who need the help most do not realize it until it's too late. There's another long list, those seen come and go because they learned too late or not at all.

Seriously, you're not a big shot bad a$$ opponent that doesn't take crap! That was an "lol" moment for sure, thanks!! Not trying to "waste time" on you, but trying to give the opposing view to bad advice that you give, nothing more and nothing less.

I love this guy. I have an opinion and don't care what others think? What the hell have you been doing with me all this time? The same damn thing. I LOL'd at your whole post. I'm not really sure what it is I need to 'learn' from you. How to pester the hell out of someone? If someone went back and read this thread, it's you who are trying to boss people around. Get over yourself, nobody cares.

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14759008
MJPhotots24, he obviously has a different opinion than you. Seriously just let it go.
Ironic post of the week:
Why do you care that elrey2375 does not agree with you? He obviously is doing well in life (which was his point by stating his personal gains in life) and does not have to listen and agree with you. You seem to believe that your way is the only way whether or not you realize it. Let it go.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. I have an opinion, the same as anyone. People are free to take it or leave it. I don't think there's one universal way that works, different ways work for different people. Should I apologize for having an opinion? I'm not shoving it down anyone's throat. They're free to take what they can use and leave the rest.

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14759008
MJPhotots24, he obviously has a different opinion than you. Seriously just let it go.
Ironic post of the week:
Why do you care that elrey2375 does not agree with you? He obviously is doing well in life (which was his point by stating his personal gains in life) and does not have to listen and agree with you. You seem to believe that your way is the only way whether or not you realize it. Let it go.

Not sure how that's ironic taking that part of a sentence out of context, though in a paragraph that was directed at him that observation was not intended for him and just a general thought of how things are today as I see it all the time. Should have been more clear for sure, but was just a general thought for the people who may actually take the bad advice, that they learned too late, not him, but can see it was not the clearest.

To answer your question, I do not care how he does or what he does, but do care about the business and seeing bad advice given is the point. You can sit there and let it happen or you can try to teach those that actually want to learn, maybe those reading this, that there's better ways and doing bad business practices only sets you back. Never going to be about one person who has no clue, it's always about the business.

Provide one quote that says my way is the only way, all that's been said is opinion based off years of doing it first hand and seeing people fail and succeed along the way. Not once in this thread do I say someone has to do it this way or that way, just in my opinion there's better ways and nothing more. That's kind of the point isn't it?

elrey2375 wrote in post #14760801
I love this guy. I have an opinion and don't care what others think? What the hell have you been doing with me all this time? The same damn thing. I LOL'd at your whole post. I'm not really sure what it is I need to 'learn' from you. How to pester the hell out of someone? If someone went back and read this thread, it's you who are trying to boss people around. Get over yourself, nobody cares.

Please quote me "bossing" people around, just one quote. Pester, you came into this thread with a personal attack carried over from other threads that took everything off course. It was about the images, what are keepers vs what is not and why based off personal opinion while talking about Jacoby a bit until you posted changing direction.

Also please point out your opinions because 90% of your posts so far have not been about how you would do things and why they work, they have been personal attacks, bad attempts at bragging, and incoherent. We agreed early on though it took a few posts (btw, agreed is your word). You came into the thread with some personal attacks, continued those for awhile in some posts. Confused things with the statement about giving away images to the SID leaving out the fact you work for the school paper.

So far your only opinions so far put forth are...

Undercutting and taking money out of others pockets is "initiative".
Giving images away to those who let you do your job is "OK".

Those were the only two opinions you've given, and when offered a counter view you've thrown out personal attacks and a whole lot of incoherent dribble.

Isn't that what everyone else is doing and you've come up with personal attacks instead for them giving their opinion? This is not the only thread you've done it, seems that's the way you like to handle things instead of actually giving a thought out argument, explaining the reasoning behind your opinions, or even reading what you quote.

Ask again, PLEASE quote me where I say you have to do it a certain way or not at all, has not happened once and only been giving opinion based off having done it already. Wheeler, Ev...read this thread, give me ONE quote of my way is the only way.

Im always up for a little tit for tat but I think its time you guys called it a game.

I heard ol' Ken traded in his gear for some badminton equipment, so all this is for naught.

madjack wrote in post #14763711
Im always up for a little tit for tat but I think its time you guys called it a game.

I heard ol' Ken traded in his gear for some badminton equipment, so all this is for naught.

No no no...he must play foosball, that's an order!


(OK badminton is pretty fun to!)

I love badminton. I am 6'10" and have fast reflexes. That net is mine.

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14700595
You should maybe read what you quote before responding to it, said that I shoot for myself all the time. HOWEVER, if anyone wants to use it they are going to pay. If I go to a youth sports game to build my portfolio in a different sport and a parent wants to buy prints or get the file am I going to hand it over free because I'm there initially to build my portfolio, no that's bad business and only sets the standard for more free work. Sure I went to shoot free and try something new, update my port, whatever the case not expecting money - but why would you let someone else make a gain off your work even though it was not a paid assignment? (Charity excluded)

I do have hard and fast rules a bit, with slight leeway because sometimes there's exceptions to the rules based off years of doing this as a full time profession and working in the business through changes that put many people out of business. Made plenty of mistakes and learned from them, and that's where the rules come from, actually living through them and growing from them. That's why you post on boards like this, trying to help others not make the same mistakes that set you back!

Now you just graduated and know it all, we've gone over this before, but you'll find out it's very simple - you stick to the rules that work and will help you grow as a business and photographer or you won't be doing this very long. Why does everyone new always make excuses for doing bad business practices? It seems if you're new you can do horrible businesses practices and it's OK because you're "learning". You can learn, grow, and perform good practices all at once amazingly. I only wish had a board like this and some others out there to learn from when starting out, they may of existed but the guy I learned from most can not remember one good piece of advice at all - that's bad. You work free and say it opens up doors, it can sometimes in some rare instances, but personally prefer to work smarter and work for pay and open up doors. Work smarter, not harder would be the catch phrase for this.

As for the other photographer taking the initiative, again you should probably know what you're talking about before responding. PawSox have one of the best baseball photographers around, he's produced top quality work for 20+ years, well respected and one of the best people you could meet - even had one company name a series of baseball cards after him! 20+ years he's taken the initiative and always one of the best year in and year out. So exactly what initiative does it take for someone to come in and undercut that guy by working for free? Anyone who calls that initiative I seriously feel sorry for and they deserve what they get when they are undercut and lose jobs to people taking the same "initiative", luckily those people usually do not last very long.

Just to be clear, not saying that's happening in this case in particular as it's a different outlet, but just an example. Though that client does pay some, not others, and know first hand lost sales because of someone shooting free for them in a different city. So yes, photographers do lose sales and money no matter what initiative they take. Thing is if they do that they're not much of a client and just drives you not to work with them and stick to the ones that treat you right.

I blame the outlet more than the photographer when starting out, they take advantage of fans who enjoy going to the game and taking photos knowing very well they are just using the person for their gain and it's not leading anywhere. Very rare case does a photographer finally step up and demand payment and gets it, usually they just move on to the next fan (or intern) with camera and take advantage of them - see it every year at parks all around the country. The first thought is always the same, only hurting themselves and they don't get yet how it's not a foot in the door - in fact it usually has the opposite outcome. Here's one editors view...

"Another thing that immediately tells me that I don’t want to work with someone is if they say, “Give me a pass and I’ll shoot you a game for free.” That may seem odd, but if you offer to work for free, that tells me that you’re not professional. It shows no respect for their photography. If you’re looking for practice, go shoot some high school games."

It really comes down to do you want to work or just shoot as a hobby. If it's work I honestly think people can do it in a smarter and much more professional way than letting third parties use your images free or trading images for access. When I'm handed business cards and they tell me they're shooting free for a third party, directly to the trash that card goes (OK, recycling bin).

1) Ask yourself what you want to shoot? (sports, weddings, events, PJ)

2) Ask yourself if you want to only cover that sport/level/area? (hard to limit)

3) Research who covers what you want to shoot? (newspapers, magazines, etc)

4) Research some more and find out about who covers what you want to shoot. In other words after you find out who covers that you then find out about them...do they offer good deals, can you make money off it, what rights do they want, who are their clients if an agency, is it worth it, etc. May even be spec based, which is a whole different argument as some do very well with it and others not so much, but better than allowing usage for credit - least your practice isn't getting used free for someone else's advantage.

5) Put a portfolio together without undercutting yourself and the business.

6) Present that portfolio keeping it updated until you do find some clients and build.

7) Repeat steps 3-6.

Never said I gave anything away for free and this was before the confusion about shooting it for the university, so you can't fall back on that in this instance. I think the entire thing has stemmed from your misunderstanding of the first post you quoted in response to one of mine. I said that when you are building a portfolio, you can't expect to get paid at the same time. You shoot for free, for yourself. I never talked about giving away the images and in fact I agreed that use should be paid for. You went off the deep end telling me I'm a know-nothing college kid and you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm glad that your way works for you, I really am. You seem like an angry guy though. You throw people's business cards away because you don't agree with them? How about finding out what's going on first? I was simply trying to back up the OP when you jumped his ass about shooting it for free. The team has a photographer, the OP was shooting for himself, how is he hurting anyone? He's already said he doesn't want to do this as a career, yet you keep shoving these missives down everyone's throat, laying out the rules of how it's got to be. Good day, sir.

PS - what 'personal' attacks have I made? You were the first to lob a personal attack, calling me a know-nothing college kid. Sometimes, I swear I hate the internet.

madjack wrote in post #14763711
Im always up for a little tit for tat but I think its time you guys called it a game.

I heard ol' Ken traded in his gear for some badminton equipment, so all this is for naught.

Oh he's met his match. I do not go quietly into that good night.

It's only a matter of time that this thread gets closed. It's a shame for Ken; such nice photos and nobody will be able to comment on them...

ewheeler20 wrote in post #14764117
It's only a matter of time that this thread gets closed. It's a shame for Ken; such nice photos and nobody will be able to comment on them...

You're absolutely right. Out of respect for the OP, I'm done. Ken is a good guy and he doesn't deserve to have this happen to his thread. Someone has to be the adult here. MJ, you win, I'm out.

Wow! These are awesome. We're you in the dugout for the first one?