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Thread started 26 Jul 2012 (Thursday) 23:27
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Cant Get sensor clean

 
Nicholas ­ R.
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Jul 27, 2012 15:31 |  #31

abbypanda wrote in post #14778653 (external link)
Nicholas R, can you explain the proper way to use the canned air, if you know?

I took some pics today and I don't seem to have any smudges, but when I look through the camera I see crap there.

abbypanda,

If your images are mostly clear, the stuff you're seeing is probably on the focusing screen. Using a blower here is a hit or miss proposition - sometimes it will make things better, very often it will make things worse. There is a way to remove the screen for cleaning, do a search for it on this forum if you are so inclined mechanically.

That is a great shot of the Swallowtail, nice macro gallery, too. Have you ever shot with a flash and slaves? Here is my macro gallery with the R1C1:
http://copperhill.zenf​olio.com/p245417329/sl​ideshow (external link)

Here are guidelines for using canned-air.
• Don't shake the can beforehand; there's nothing to mix.
• When spraying with it, keep it perfectly upright at 90 degrees and move the object you're blowing NOT the can.
• Always let a little air out before spraying an optic. Propellant has a tendency to build up towards the valve and will come right out if the can has been sitting for a while
• Don't let the jet-straw get any closer to the sensor than 1" or 1½" or just inside the lens mount.
• Use very short "staccato" bursts, no more than a one second shot; "freezing" will only occur when you use a prolonged stream of air.
* You will notice with canned-air that the jet-straw moves around as you pull the trigger, that's why it is strongly recommended to have the camera body on a tripod and use both hands to operate the air. IOW, hold the can in one hand and control the direction of the straw with the other; so instead of the air going helter-skelter (great song), you can pinpoint it on the sensor. This is extremely appropo for full-frame sensors where you may need to shoot a jet of air on each of the four quadrants.

Nicholas
www.copperhillimages.c​om (external link)




  
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abbypanda
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Jul 27, 2012 17:28 |  #32

Thanks for that info. Thanks for sharing your pictures too they are great! I liked looking through them. I figured it might be on the focus screen or something. I have never used flash slaves. I just got a flash and I need to learn how to use it well b/c up until now I just did all natural light and pretty much all handheld. I took a pic of the sky today and a few things I'll post for you all to check out. I think the spots are gone. But I can't get it to upload right now b/c I'm at our other gym without a good signal.




  
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SkipD
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Jul 27, 2012 17:45 |  #33

abbypanda wrote in post #14778653 (external link)
Nicholas R, can you explain the proper way to use the canned air, if you know?

One thing that you MUST fully understand is that no "canned air" cans contain air. What is in them is a liquid solvent such as difluorethane (which is sometimes used as a refrigerant). This product vaporizes (turns into gas) at normal room temperature. It also gets cold while converting to a gas and if it gets too cold, it will stay in liquid form while being sprayed.

If difluorethane contacts various parts of a camera in liquid form (because of improper use of the "canned air" product), permanent damage to plastic parts and the mirror can occur.

Here is a MSDS sheet for difluorethane (external link) which defines the potential hazards while using it. The product is considered flammable and is hazardous if you inhale the gas.


Skip Douglas
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Nicholas ­ R.
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Jul 27, 2012 18:09 |  #34

SkipD wrote in post #14779170 (external link)
One thing that you MUST fully understand is that no "canned air" cans contain air. What is in them is a liquid solvent such as difluorethane (which is sometimes used as a refrigerant). This product vaporizes (turns into gas) at normal room temperature. It also gets cold while converting to a gas and if it gets too cold, it will stay in liquid form while being sprayed.

If difluorethane contacts various parts of a camera in liquid form (because of improper use of the "canned air" product), permanent damage to plastic parts and the mirror can occur.

Here is a MSDS sheet for difluorethane (external link) which defines the potential hazards while using it. The product is considered flammable and is hazardous if you inhale the gas.

True enough, but it's perfectly safe to use on sensors if you follow those guidelines. I don't think Canon would allow their techs to imolate or melt or in any way destroy their sensors on a regular basis. A very long time ago I got propellant on my first D-SLR's sensor and it came right off with Eclipse. Entirely too much FUD on this topic :rolleyes: IMHO. Follow those guidelines and don't adlib or wing-it and you'll be fine.

Nicholas




  
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SkipD
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Jul 27, 2012 18:36 |  #35

Nicholas R. wrote in post #14779230 (external link)
True enough, but it's perfectly safe to use on sensors if you follow those guidelines. I don't think Canon would allow their techs to imolate or melt or in any way destroy their sensors on a regular basis. A very long time ago I got propellant on my first D-SLR's sensor and it came right off with Eclipse. Entirely too much FUD on this topic :rolleyes: IMHO. Follow those guidelines and don't adlib or wing-it and you'll be fine.

Nicholas

I agree. I still feel that it's important that anybody who doesn't understand the product really should understand it and it's potential hazards as well as the safe way to use it (and why the safety rules are there) before using it.


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lannes
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Jul 27, 2012 18:40 as a reply to  @ Nicholas R.'s post |  #36

There is a mis-conception that you can remove the focusing screen on the 7D, because its a transmissive lcd screen you cannot remove it, so don't even try.

Since you can't remove it be very careful using any form of blower or can air directly on the screen, as this may push the the dust particles further into the pentaprism block and behind the transmissive lcd screen. In this situation only Canon would then be able to remove them.

I have been able to remove dust on the focusing screen by using my Electric butterfly staticly charged brush which attracts the dust to itself, allowing you to remove it from the camera rather than blowing it around inside. There is a right angled mirror brush head to make it easier to reach the focusing screen, the trick is to use the static charge to attract the particles by lightly touching the spots rather than brushing the whole surface.

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Jul 27, 2012 21:32 |  #37

NOTE; I am NOT trying to debate, or say that you are wrong/I am right/etc,,,just merely giving my opinion on this matter :)
Now, with that out of the way..lol

Nicholas R. wrote in post #14779230 (external link)
True enough, but it's perfectly safe to use on sensors if you follow those guidelines. I don't think Canon would allow their techs to imolate or melt or in any way destroy their sensors on a regular basis. A very long time ago I got propellant on my first D-SLR's sensor and it came right off with Eclipse. Entirely too much FUD on this topic :rolleyes: IMHO. Follow those guidelines and don't adlib or wing-it and you'll be fine.

Nicholas

Okay, but the only "proof" to what you are saying applies in this application is that you say "Canon techs use it"...
I have never heard of or seen a tech use canned air on ANYthing but a keyboard or various much LESS sensitive electronics, and more importantly, optical surfaces!!

Not that I dont believe you, I am sure there is some truth there regardless, but I just cannot see a company like Canon(big..) using something like canned air when they could EASILY, and MUCH more cost effectively, use an air compressor and the proper inline water/oil/trap filters..

Maybe they use it in "mobile" applications, or for small service centers?(do these even exist?lol)

My point(and other's points, though not speaking for them)
Canned air is BAD for optical surfaces...whether or not Canon uses it is besides the point..if they mess something up, THEY have the $ to fix it! If YOU mess it up, then do YOU have the $ to fix it? I would NEVER take that chance and I LITERALLY do this for a living...and I use a really good air compressor and filters/traps for anything that will not get removed with a burst from a bulb blower..if I can afford to, I would think Canon would as well. Canned air is not cheap either..and the fumes are not good either..

Sorry, not trying to get into corporate policies or environmental/health impacts,etc...just trying to explain that canned air seems to ME like a step in the completely wrong direction when trying to clean an optical surface..

just sayin.. take it with a grain o' salt, please..again, not trying to argue..just stressing to someone who may be following this thread that canned air is most likely not the right approach for sensor maintenance (using this word because cleaning is, IMHO, normal maintenance on an SLR or any other removable lens system)

Cheers!


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Jul 27, 2012 21:32 |  #38

lannes wrote in post #14777348 (external link)
I think you need some sort of illuminated loupe to see the sensor spots, their not that visible without magnification.

QUOTED IMAGE

THIS! really helps :)


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kevEOS
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Jul 28, 2012 04:47 |  #39

When it comes to the sensor rocket blower should be first resort and finish step. I havent had the need to do LensPen/RocketBlower cleaning in awhile. The newer dust shakers work pretty decent for me I guess.

IMPORTANT: (FOCUS SCREEN)
For dust on the focus screen just live with it. Majority of the time blower will make things worse. I have never been able to blow any particle away. The more aggressive you get that tiny dot or two that bothers you will quickly turn into larger debris when looking through viewfinder. I stopped blowing air into the camera between lens changes as well. I don't know where I got that habit from. Blowing air aggressively into camera body just shoves debris deeper.

At least I know my new 5D is filled with authentic Canon dust. Im learning live with it and just enjoy shooting.


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Jul 28, 2012 08:28 |  #40

XBGM3R wrote in post #14778458 (external link)
Million thanks for link. its a great tip, DIY, & tricks. I save it in my bookmark. :)

I thinking about order it for cleaning sensor, but read your warning post about lenspen put you through nightmare..

Thank you for an alert...

I had a different experience. I had one blob that was showing on my pictures and ordered the Eclipse kit. It came close to ruining my sensor. After running one of the swabs across the sensor I now had multiple spots, plus two smears that weren't there before. Everybody said it would probably take more than one cleaning so I didn't panic, but after using four swabs without the sensor not improving I decided to take a different route. I got the SensorKlear lenspen and it worked. It took me three cleaning sessions but I finally got the crap off the sensor that the wet system smeared.

I had used the SensorKlear pen years back with my 30D and liked it, but everybody seemed to rave about the Eclipse swab system and I thought I would give it a try. I watched the company's video on YouTube and followed their instructions. But the lesson learned is that if you have a system that works for you, stick with it. The wet system didn't work for me, but the dry system (Lenspen) does.


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Skul
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Jul 28, 2012 08:45 |  #41

Only because I never saw it mentioned...
The spot showed up even though you used several different lenses, correct?




  
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Nicholas ­ R.
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Jul 28, 2012 09:52 |  #42

As this thread proves, whatever works for you is fine. A few points however:

* As good as pre-made swabs have been over the years, they have a tremendous amount of flex at the neck, so it may be difficult for some people to bear down with enough pressure to remove dust and debris

* The SensorKlear pens are another hit-or-miss-proposition, some people use them exclusively while others have problems. Personally I find them great at going around the edges after swabbing to pick up residual particles. But you must tamp the head several times before use to shake off excess graphite.

* We are NOT in laboratories while cleaning our sensors and we do not regularly ingest methanol nor propellant nor do we squirt it in our eyes or on our skin. Cars and thumbtacks can be dangerous when not used properly, so shall we ban them? I think not, as long as we're careful and know what we're doing.

* Many, many people use canned-air on optics, if it was as lethal as described herein, it would have been banned a long time ago and not sold in Staples. If your knees buckle and you get all quivery at the thought of using it, then don't. But don't come here to scare the living bejesus out of those reading this. A constructive post would have been to post a link to the MSDS and not say another word. Give us the information then let us make a sane, rational decision. Most of us do not have access nor can afford a filtered air compressor as found in labs, but for over a decade we've been doing pretty good with the low-tech tools at our disposal including swabs and air and brushes.

For cryin' out loud, there is a well-known company that sells sensor cleaning products with a website that maintains Eclipse will bore a hole in your sensor and through the floor and all the way to the other side of the planet. They also say that just being in the same room with methanol will cause one to go insane, get cancer and start hallucinating. Do you believe everything you read? If so, we are truly doomed.

Nicholas
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Jul 28, 2012 13:50 |  #43

Nicholas R. wrote in post #14781290 (external link)
For cryin' out loud, there is a well-known company that sells sensor cleaning products with a website that maintains Eclipse will bore a hole in your sensor and through the floor and all the way to the other side of the planet. They also say that just being in the same room with methanol will cause one to go insane, get cancer and start hallucinating. Do you believe everything you read?

No, I don't. So give us a link to the moronic website. I could use a good giggle.


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Nicholas ­ R.
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Jul 28, 2012 13:57 |  #44

hollis_f wrote in post #14781994 (external link)
No, I don't. So give us a link to the moronic website. I could use a good giggle.

C'mon, Frank, you can figure it out pretty easy, I'm not going to give it any more traffic here. But it's just like the old Pravda as far as propaganda goes.

Oh, OK, I'll give you a hint: www.cleaningsensors.co​m (external link)

Regards,
Nicholas




  
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Jul 28, 2012 17:53 |  #45

Nicholas R. wrote in post #14781290 (external link)
As this thread proves, whatever works for you is fine. A few points however:

* Many, many people use canned-air on optics, if it was as lethal as described herein, it would have been banned a long time ago and not sold in Staples. If your knees buckle and you get all quivery at the thought of using it, then don't. But don't come here to scare the living bejesus out of those reading this. A constructive post would have been to post a link to the MSDS and not say another word. Give us the information then let us make a sane, rational decision. Most of us do not have access nor can afford a filtered air compressor as found in labs, but for over a decade we've been doing pretty good with the low-tech tools at our disposal including swabs and air and brushes.

For cryin' out loud, there is a well-known company that sells sensor cleaning products with a website that maintains Eclipse will bore a hole in your sensor and through the floor and all the way to the other side of the planet. They also say that just being in the same room with methanol will cause one to go insane, get cancer and start hallucinating. Do you believe everything you read? If so, we are truly doomed.

Nicholas

Sorry. I hate to flame the fire, but come on..
I am gonna "say another word" despite your CLEARLY true and ground breaking reasons/proof that this is a great product to use on your very expensive optics and optical coatings

Umm, so because they sell canned air at Staples, that automatically means that it is perfectly safe to use on OPTICS. that IS the topic at hand....when it is clearly marketed for electronics, etc..and is "not banned", so it must work well..
They also sell acetone, bleach, and many other chemicals in stores, so clearly, "BECAUSE THEY SELL THEM", it MUST be safe to just drown your lenses in bleach to get them clean...
I mean, that is the exact same "logic" you are using...

Someone HAS already posted some MSDS info about canned air and the chemicals(NONE of which are actual "air"!!), and I am not BLINDLY making an irrational decision or saying that it will burn a whole in your optics.
I have in fact worked with optics, optical coatings, and highly sensitive electronics(including cleaning and maintaining optics and electronics) for over 10 years and giving my PROFESSIONAL opinion on using canned air for THIS EXACT purpose.

And I am not trying to scare the bejesus out of anyone...merely giving MY opinion and experiences after learning this lesson the hard way.
If you want to sit there and give people some random 'freedom to not believe any/everything you read' crap based on some really ridiculous reasons like; "it would have been banned from Staples years ago", or because "we have been doing pretty good with 'low-tech' tools"...pretty sure an air compressor is VERY low tech. you may not have one..but I am willing to bet one of your friends/family/neighbo​rs do..
Even better would be to just forego the canned air and use a bulb blower (which was my original/constant message/point) on even some of the most sticky and annoying dust spots...IF that doesnt work, along with a good wet clean with any of the recommended products listed thus far, then maybe look at borrowing or using something with some more strength..
If you/anyone thinks that canned air is that product to use, please, do not let me "stop you"(as if I could)

most people(kids) buy canned air for only one reason..to get high.lol
And honestly, in this specific topic, that may be all it is good for. killing brain cells. OR blowing some hair/dust off of your keyboard..that is also a good purpose for this product. :rolleyes:

And yes. I believe EVERYthing I read ;)
And everyone else does too, obviously, since apparently my opinion in the thread is scaring the bejesus out of people and making them think that just being in the room with canned air will kill them, or their optics/optical coatings.

And we are doomed regardless, no matter what this thread implies..seeing how people continue to believe in things like "global warming" or "climate shift", and using canned air on highly sensitive optical surfaces. ;)

Go ahead. use it on your most expensive L lenses and have fun. especially a nice new 85L II or even better the 24 TS-E II with "Sub-wavelength structure and super-spectra coatings"...would love to see what the chemicals in canned air would do to them. :rolleyes:
It is your life/money/gear/opinio​n, do what you want! not trying to take that from you/anyone...just giving my opinion on the topic at hand......unless you have a problem with that..? dont want to scare the bejesus out of anyone for no apparent reason..

Alright. done. no more "flaming"(and yes, I will leave that open for you if you want to use it in some 'very clever' way) :)


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