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Thread started 04 Sep 2012 (Tuesday) 22:45
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Audio Question

 
Kylemorgan88
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Sep 04, 2012 22:45 |  #1

Will I notice a big audio quality difference between plugging my wireless receiver directly into my 5d Mk II instead of into an external recorder like an H4n?

Second question: Will downloading magic lantern improve the audio quality on the 5d Mk II for this situation?

I have a Sennheiser EW112 G system and am planning to hot-shoe mount the receiver and plug it straight into the camera for our next wedding. That is, unless the audio will be noticeably worse than capturing it through an external recorder.




  
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John ­ Sims
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Sep 05, 2012 02:00 |  #2

ML will help audio on the camera a great deal as you can see the audio levels in the viewfinder for a start. IIRC it will also switch off AGC on the 5D MkII.

While the on camera audio will be more convenient, as it is already synced, subject to what file type you use on the Zoom, it won't be better. But you may not notice the difference.

I think I would be inclined to feed the radio into the camera and use the Zoom as a second recording device.


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Kento
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Sep 05, 2012 03:15 as a reply to  @ John Sims's post |  #3

Why not plug it into the H4n? You can run multiple channels on it as well as its built in microphone at the same time.


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Kylemorgan88
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Sep 05, 2012 09:33 as a reply to  @ Kento's post |  #4

Will ML also improve the in camera pre-amp? Having levels displayed while recording will be a plus, but AGC isn't really a problem anymore now that the latest firmware allows for manual level adjustment.

I'm not sure how to mount the zoom and my receiver both on the camera. I also don't want to to sink audio if it's not necessary. This will be a wedding SDE, so lots of run and gun with monopods, all on a tight timetable. Being portable and efficient is top priority, as long as it doesn't compromise quality.




  
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Orguss
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Sep 05, 2012 09:59 |  #5

this will help you!

http://www.amazon.com …&keywords=hot+s​hoes+mount (external link)

my setup a few mouths ago.

IMAGE: http://jerryphim.smugmug.com/photos/i-t7R4wHF/0/XL/i-t7R4wHF-XL.jpg



  
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Kento
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Sep 05, 2012 10:04 |  #6

Well, the H4n can act as a small portable Mixer for multiple channels of audio which would all be in sync with each other, you would just need to sync the entire stream to the video clips, but hopefully you're already using something like Plural Eyes for that. Once you're synced with the good audio channels from the H4n you can trash the audio from the cameras.

I run two EW100 G3 lavs hooked to the H4n with XLR plugs, this gives me 3 channels of audio, one mono for groom, one mono for bride and the built in H4n Stereo mic records ambient stereo sound inside the church (original music from choire and such).

I really don't understand why you're even debating using ML, it's one of the best things you could ever do for a Canon DSLR if you're using it for video, and it's free! Seriously, you're giving yourself a huge handicap if you're running a Canon DSLR for video without ML.


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ChasWG
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Sep 05, 2012 10:46 |  #7

Well ML isn't going to improve the actual recording of the audio to the camera. The Preamps in the MkII are going to be what they have always been. No firmware can make them better.

That being said, ML will help in other ways that the others above have already said. I just wish I could use it on my 7D, but sadly, no... :(

I haven't tested the preamps in the H4n directly with the preamps in the camera. I would bet that there is a slightly better quality in the Zoom, but just barely. Is that enough to warrent the need to sync audio in post? Maybe, maybe not. If it were me, I would run a test using the exact same wireless and mic run to the camera and then record the exact same thing again recording to the H4n. Load them both into your edit system and listen to them back to back and choose which is better.

While the Zoom H4n is a nice product, it is still a sub $300 recorder.


Chas Gordon
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Kylemorgan88
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Sep 05, 2012 20:33 |  #8

Thanks for all the responses. Some very good info here. Really glad I found this forum.

Chas- I think you are right, the audio quality difference will be negligible, but I'll just have to test it out to be sure.

Kento- How do you mic up the bride with a lav? This will be our first wedding using the wireless system, and we are planning to mic the officiant and the groom. Our thought was to mount the officiants mic a little low on his lapel and increase the gain in order to pick up audio from both him and the bride. If there is a better way, please share.

I downloaded ML for my 5d mkii and 60d this afternoon. Wow, it has A TON of features and will take some time to learn, but appears to be easy to navigate. Honestly, I didn't realize ML covered such a broad array of functions.

Orguss wrote in post #14950501 (external link)
my setup a few mouths ago.

I can't imagine. I have trouble just keeping just one mouth in check ;). Thanks for the link.




  
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ChasWG
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Sep 06, 2012 00:19 |  #9

Micing a bride is a tough task. The dress is the big issue. It's a one piece affair usually so getting the transmitter up in there is a bit of a task. I have used these stretchy bands that attach around the waist with velcro and the transmitter pack attaches to that. And then the mic cable makes it way up to the front of the dress. Also, wash the crap out of your hands. You don't want the wrath of the bride to come down upon you if you try to clip the mic to her dress and you happen to have dirty hands.

So all that sounds a bit difficult, but in the end I think it's worth it. Women's voices are often smaller and thinner than men's voices. So your plan to place the mic lower on the officiant's jacket in hopes of getting the brides audio. Meh... If it were me (and it has been in the past, sound mixer on a cable TV show called, "A Wedding Story"), I would mic the bride and the officiant. The groom's voice will probably be a lot stronger and able to hit one of the other two mics better that the brides
's voice will. A tough task, but worth it in the end.

The other choice would be to put the other mic on the groom and hope that the officiant, a person that does public speaking for a living hopefully, has a strong voice and can hit one of the couples mics.


Chas Gordon
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Kylemorgan88
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Sep 06, 2012 01:34 as a reply to  @ ChasWG's post |  #10

Do you ever get resistance from the bride when requesting/asking her to wear a mic?

Also, we are micing the groom during pictures/pre-ceremony. Does anybody have good tips for hiding a lapel mic under the tie? I saw a stillmotion video where they taped a small lapel mic without a clip under the tie, but am not sure what specific details I should watch out for when doing this (clothing rubbing/muffled audio/tape coming loose).

A ton of questions I know, but bare with me. I am just an eager noob, especially when it comes to audio.




  
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Snafoo
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Sep 06, 2012 16:50 |  #11

John Sims wrote in post #14949564 (external link)
ML will help audio on the camera a great deal as you can see the audio levels in the viewfinder for a start. IIRC it will also switch off AGC...

One small detail - the 5d allows you to turn off AGC directly (no need for ML), but ML has so many other nice features that it's worth having it loaded in any case.


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ChasWG
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Sep 07, 2012 01:21 |  #12

Kylemorgan88 wrote in post #14953923 (external link)
Do you ever get resistance from the bride when requesting/asking her to wear a mic?

Also, we are micing the groom during pictures/pre-ceremony. Does anybody have good tips for hiding a lapel mic under the tie? I saw a stillmotion video where they taped a small lapel mic without a clip under the tie, but am not sure what specific details I should watch out for when doing this (clothing rubbing/muffled audio/tape coming loose).

A ton of questions I know, but bare with me. I am just an eager noob, especially when it comes to audio.

Well I've spent years learning how to effectively place a hidden Mic. Kind of one of my specialties now. I have had to do it on so many reality shows over the years that I've gotten pretty good at it. The trick is actually exposing the Mic head just enough, but only so most people or camera ops couldn't tell you where it is on a person.

It all starts with what type of Mic you have to work with. They are not all the same. My Mic of choose is the Sanken COS-11D. A very stout and hardy Mic, but not too big either. On men wearing a suit jacket and tie, having it pop out the front and top of the tie knot with a small piece of medical tape (the 3M stuff sticks to everything real well) to hold it in place. But do it early and test it out, have him walk around, fold his arms move his upper body because all those things can cause clothes noise rustle. And that will ruin you sound recordings just as bad as anything else. Practicing your technique with your mics is really they best thing you can do.

Also try popping the Mic head out of a button hole and shifting it in front of the button to help hide it in the clothes. Again, a small bit of med tape to hold it in place. Black mics on black buttons get lost in the scene real quick like. I've done that move so many times I can usually nail it the very first time and not have to mess with it until its time to take it off.

For women, well I like to use what mother nature blessed them with. Some might say I'm a boon man, OK, I'll agree with that, but the bigger, the better I say! Now we are talking sound here of course, right? Good! Use their cleavage to your advantage. Simply tape the Mic to the back side of the dress material just under the top edge of the dress. Again, wash your hands first! Use a good strip of med tape to hold it down. But here is where you really need to be careful. Don't take this as an opportunity to have a peak down her dress and ogle at her rack. Not cool at all and you'll probably get your ass kicked by the groom. You just have to know how and where you're going to do it without looking too much. This is not a peep show. But once you have the Mic placed there, your going to get great sound. Her breast and the tight fitting dress create an area where her skin and close don't touch and won't rub. Well that is as long as she doesn't hug the crap out of someone. Oh yeah, its a wedding. That's going to happen, you just have to live with that kind of stuff. Hugs are great to capture, but tough on audio.

Hopefully that helps some. I've been thinking about making a video about how to properly place a Mic for all sorts of different situations.


Chas Gordon
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John ­ Sims
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Sep 07, 2012 02:31 |  #13

ChasWG wrote in post #14958345 (external link)
.......... I've been thinking about making a video about how to properly place a Mic for all sorts of different situations.

Make it so. :D


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Kento
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Sep 07, 2012 03:27 |  #14

John Sims wrote in post #14958515 (external link)
Make it so. :D

Seriously, I bet a decent wireless lav mic video would earn a lot of hits because I remember how difficult it was to find information on the subject back when I was still learning to use them.


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Orguss
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Sep 07, 2012 15:48 |  #15

ChasWG wrote in post #14958345 (external link)
Well I've spent years learning how to effectively place a hidden Mic. Kind of one of my specialties now. I have had to do it on so many reality shows over the years that I've gotten pretty good at it. The trick is actually exposing the Mic head just enough, but only so most people or camera ops couldn't tell you where it is on a person.

It all starts with what type of Mic you have to work with. They are not all the same. My Mic of choose is the Sanken COS-11D. A very stout and hardy Mic, but not too big either. On men wearing a suit jacket and tie, having it pop out the front and top of the tie knot with a small piece of medical tape (the 3M stuff sticks to everything real well) to hold it in place. But do it early and test it out, have him walk around, fold his arms move his upper body because all those things can cause clothes noise rustle. And that will ruin you sound recordings just as bad as anything else. Practicing your technique with your mics is really they best thing you can do.

Also try popping the Mic head out of a button hole and shifting it in front of the button to help hide it in the clothes. Again, a small bit of med tape to hold it in place. Black mics on black buttons get lost in the scene real quick like. I've done that move so many times I can usually nail it the very first time and not have to mess with it until its time to take it off.

For women, well I like to use what mother nature blessed them with. Some might say I'm a boon man, OK, I'll agree with that, but the bigger, the better I say! Now we are talking sound here of course, right? Good! Use their cleavage to your advantage. Simply tape the Mic to the back side of the dress material just under the top edge of the dress. Again, wash your hands first! Use a good strip of med tape to hold it down. But here is where you really need to be careful. Don't take this as an opportunity to have a peak down her dress and ogle at her rack. Not cool at all and you'll probably get your ass kicked by the groom. You just have to know how and where you're going to do it without looking too much. This is not a peep show. But once you have the Mic placed there, your going to get great sound. Her breast and the tight fitting dress create an area where her skin and close don't touch and won't rub. Well that is as long as she doesn't hug the crap out of someone. Oh yeah, its a wedding. That's going to happen, you just have to live with that kind of stuff. Hugs are great to capture, but tough on audio.

Hopefully that helps some. I've been thinking about making a video about how to properly place a Mic for all sorts of different situations.

Good advise Chas- gonna try that, but I'll have the bridemaid do, my hands are to shakey close to BOOBIES :D




  
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Audio Question
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