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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 13 Sep 2012 (Thursday) 10:47
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HSS vs Watt Seconds

 
Wilt
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Sep 15, 2012 18:52 |  #46

Scatterbrained wrote in post #14996283 (external link)
The point was that stronger lights + ND filters are the preferred method over hypersync. You're intentionally ignoring the first part so you can attack the second. The downsides of hypersync were covered succinctly by GonzoGolf early on. Myself and Thomas Cambell suggested MOHR POWAH coupled with an ND filter. I'm not sure what you don't get here?:confused:

Gonzogolf mentioned that HSS could achieve higher shutter speeds, but HSS also lowers the flash power of the flash unit (and is also not found in studio flash units). The Hypersynch mode can also raise shutter speeds to some degree, but bring their own limitations. But ND filters were not mentioned in either context by Gonzogolf.
Tom Campbell was the first to mention ND, "I prefer more power + ND filter to control ambiant with flashes." And that is where it must be made clear that ND will not alter the relative strength of ambient:flash, therefore of no value to the OP question.


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david ­ lacey
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Sep 15, 2012 21:19 as a reply to  @ post 14986079 |  #47

Chad, I have both ranger RX speed AS with sky-ports and a set of canon 580 EX IIs with radio popper PX system (capable of HHS with the 580s)

Both are good and for different reasons one is light and packs small and the other is like carrying around a car battery. For mid day sun full length pictures only the RX will allow full control of the environment. Head shots and half body the HSS kit works fine but you will always find it creeping into the corner of your frame because it has to be so close to be effective. It is always nice to have extra power so long as you can crank it down when needed.

Why not just add a AB1600 to your kit?




  
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Sep 15, 2012 23:31 |  #48

So, have we determined that the only reason for wanting to use HSS or hypersync is to kill the ambient so one can shoot wider open when it's bright out?

HSS kills your light buy almost 3 stops once you go over your cameras syn speed (so good luck shooting with your light anywhere but next to the subject when it's bright out) and hypersync works with some monoheads and camera bodies, but not others.

ND filters knock down the amount of light entering the lens, which is then compensated by opening up and shooting at a wider aperture, that's the point of this exercise.

Having enough flash power to balance with full sun or slight overcast and being able to use a modifier of descent size is the nut to be cracked. But, I'm probably repeating what others have said.

Some have had success with hypersync, others, like myself wish I had. Instead, 3 stop ND filters, Ranger pac with 1100 WS and a ginormous modifier, yes.........


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ChadAndreo
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Sep 16, 2012 19:44 |  #49

Thank You everyone for your opinions. After reading through this thread, I have decided to upgrade to more powerful monolights for outdoor work that cannot be done properly with speedlights.
My question now is, will Einsteins or B1600(same power) be powerful enough to over power the sun or should I look at 1000ws strobes?
I usually use a 3 stop CPL or 8 stop ND filter when I shoot outdoors.

example:
overcast
f/4 - 1/160
CPL Filter

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Thomas ­ Campbell
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Sep 16, 2012 20:01 |  #50

You are really going to need over 1000ws.


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gonzogolf
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Sep 17, 2012 09:51 |  #51

ChadAndreo wrote in post #15000405 (external link)
Thank You everyone for your opinions. After reading through this thread, I have decided to upgrade to more powerful monolights for outdoor work that cannot be done properly with speedlights.
My question now is, will Einsteins or B1600(same power) be powerful enough to over power the sun or should I look at 1000ws strobes?
I usually use a 3 stop CPL or 8 stop ND filter when I shoot outdoors.

Keep in mind that flash is additive. If you intend to use one light, then yes you need a monster. But if you are using multiple lights you can go farther with multiple monolights. Obviously a lot depends on the shot, and the modifiers.




  
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Wilt
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Sep 17, 2012 10:10 |  #52

ChadAndreo wrote in post #15000405 (external link)
After reading through this thread, I have decided to upgrade to more powerful monolights for outdoor work that cannot be done properly with speedlights.
My question now is, will Einsteins or B1600(same power) be powerful enough to over power the sun or should I look at 1000ws strobes?
I usually use a 3 stop CPL or 8 stop ND filter when I shoot outdoors.

example:
overcast
f/4 - 1/160
CPL Filter

Again, as stated (and debated) earlier, it is the power of the flash which determines the relative power of ambient vs. flash...the CPL or ND has no factor in the consideration because the lens filter will reduced the intensity of all light, nor selective enough in its action (reflections)

According to Buff web site, the Einstein 640w-s unit should have GN155 with the standard 7" reflector. If you ambient level was f/4, your Einstein calculation would use f/5.6 to compute distance to overpower ambient light... 155/5.6 = 27.7' would be the distance at which your light could be placed and still overpower the sun.
If it was sunny day bright sun, 155/22 = 7' would be the distance at which your light could be placed and still overpower the sun.


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ChadAndreo
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Sep 17, 2012 11:49 |  #53

I will need a strobe powerful enough to overpower the sun by at least one stop when using either my 28" beauty dish or 40" softbox umbrella.
I was looking at the WL x3200, and from what I have read, when used at full power, it appears to have issues with the VML. Can anyone confirm this?
That would defeat the purpose of buying such a power monolight for location work.
The Elinchrom Ranger RX Speed AS 1100ws Kit looks promising, but as of right now, I cannot justify speeding $2400 for the kit + $$$ on new modifiers.


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Sep 17, 2012 12:38 |  #54

ChadAndreo wrote in post #15003655 (external link)
I will need a strobe powerful enough to overpower the sun by at least one stop when using either my 28" beauty dish or 40" softbox umbrella.
I was looking at the WL x3200, and from what I have read, when used at full power, it appears to have issues with the VML. Can anyone confirm this?
That would defeat the purpose of buying such a power monolight for location work.
The Elinchrom Ranger RX Speed AS 1100ws Kit looks promising, but as of right now, I cannot justify speeding $2400 for the kit + $$$ on new modifiers.

Here is a useful page on the Buff website; http://www.paulcbuff.c​om/output.php (external link)
Whether you are using Buff or some other modifier the numbers would seem to be a good starting point.

One big question becomes how far away from the model you plan to have the light source.

Remember that, for planning purposes, moving the light from 8 feet to 11 feet doubles the light requirement. Its a "rule of thumb" based on F stops and inverse square law. i.e. moving the light stand closer or farther way in distance increments that are the same in feet as the full step between f stops halves or double the light requirement.

Also, consider how diffusion fabrics or grids impact the light intensity.

When planning the shoot also consider using a tripod, make an image of the scene without model of light at desired exposure, then place model with light where it needs to be and make your exposures. Now it will be an easy matter to get rid of a light and stand that are in the scene.

There are lots of ways to solve the problem, just have to spend some time planning.

We used to do these shots on film with strobes or even hot lights, if just takes some planning.


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JakAHearts
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Sep 17, 2012 14:46 |  #55

Is it an african or a european ND filter?


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ChadAndreo
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Sep 19, 2012 22:45 |  #56

dmward wrote in post #15003904 (external link)
Here is a useful page on the Buff website; http://www.paulcbuff.c​om/output.php (external link)
Whether you are using Buff or some other modifier the numbers would seem to be a good starting point.

One big question becomes how far away from the model you plan to have the light source.

Remember that, for planning purposes, moving the light from 8 feet to 11 feet doubles the light requirement. Its a "rule of thumb" based on F stops and inverse square law. i.e. moving the light stand closer or farther way in distance increments that are the same in feet as the full step between f stops halves or double the light requirement.

Also, consider how diffusion fabrics or grids impact the light intensity.

When planning the shoot also consider using a tripod, make an image of the scene without model of light at desired exposure, then place model with light where it needs to be and make your exposures. Now it will be an easy matter to get rid of a light and stand that are in the scene.

There are lots of ways to solve the problem, just have to spend some time planning.

We used to do these shots on film with strobes or even hot lights, if just takes some planning.

Thanks,
The PCB Output program is what actually caused me to wonder if an Einstein would be enough power for what I want to accomplish.

JakAHearts wrote in post #15004555 (external link)
Is it an african or a european ND filter?

Huh?

Besides white lightning, are there any other companies that make reasonably priced 1000+ w/s monolights?


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dmward
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Sep 19, 2012 23:49 |  #57

ChadAndreo wrote in post #15017244 (external link)
Thanks,
The PCB Output program is what actually caused me to wonder if an Einstein would be enough power for what I want to accomplish.

That depends on the modifier and the ambient exposure you want.
That's where you have to start. what is the ambient exposure, then what is required to light the subject as you choose for the shot.

The answer will range over several stops depending on what you are trying to accomplish.


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ChadAndreo
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Sep 20, 2012 02:12 |  #58

1-2 stops over midday sun.
If my calculations are correct using the "Sunny 16", to expose for 2 stops above ambient, I would need something that can expose for f22 @ 1/200.
My main modifiers are a 28" BD with no modifier, PLM or either of my softboxes(40 and 48").


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Sep 20, 2012 03:16 |  #59

Scatterbrained wrote in post #14994879 (external link)
You can use an ND filter to reduce the ambient and then up the strobe power to compensate. You have control of the strobe output, not the sun's output. ;) It's as simple as setting the exposure on the camera to get the background where you want it, and then metering the flash for that setting and adding a bit to compensate for the ND filter. Having stronger lights and ND filters gives you more flexibility in how you can present the sky (making a noon day look like evening for example) relative to the subject as well as giving you more aperture options.

bw!




  
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Sep 20, 2012 03:18 |  #60

Scatterbrained wrote in post #14994994 (external link)
By using a more powerful flash. Put the speedlights away Wilt. ;)

Couldn't agree more :lol:




  
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