If There Was Ever A Better Way For a Pro To Defend His Turf...

I have to share this. It is golden. If you haven't seen it, I'm sure you will watch it 3 times.

Harlan Ellison - Pay The Writer

You are about 3 years too late!

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=686574

It is old but still relevant. The problem, imo, is that very few follow this advice when they are starting. I get upset when successful companies come looking for free use and throw that "good publicity line" at me. I never bite. I had spent a few weeks shooting around the Los Cabos, Mexico area and had a well known book publisher contact me for use but the flunky they had contact me to begin with wanted it for nothing. When I didn't bite we parted ways but it was nice to hear from an editor a week or so later and we came to terms on use of quite a few of my pictures. Stand your ground irrespective of what your experience level is. You will certainly lose some but you will also win some that actually pay cash. Try taking that photo credit and put it in your bank account.

All true and I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't good advice...interestingly I followed a few of the the "Related Vidoes" and found a fascinating interview where a much younger Ellison say almost the exact opposite;

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=DwyyJ3D3g1E

The whole thing is interesting but the bit that sparked my interest is from 7:17. I understand it's a different context, but still...

SOK wrote in post #15128163
All true and I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't good advice...interestingly I followed a few of the the "Related Vidoes" and found a fascinating interview where a much younger Ellison say almost the exact opposite;

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=DwyyJ3D3g1E

The whole thing is interesting but the bit that sparked my interest is from 7:17. I understand it's a different context, but still...

The difference is context is, "I'm now a big-time writer who swings a lot of weight, so I can afford to be magnanamous...if I feel like it."

Plus the fact that "based on a short story by..." is a whole lot different from using your actual work and paying you nothing. In fact, it's legally different--the difference between a derivative copyright and copyright infringement.

ssim wrote in post #15128001
It is old but still relevant. The problem, imo, is that very few follow this advice when they are starting. I get upset when successful companies come looking for free use and throw that "good publicity line" at me. I never bite. I had spent a few weeks shooting around the Los Cabos, Mexico area and had a well known book publisher contact me for use but the flunky they had contact me to begin with wanted it for nothing. When I didn't bite we parted ways but it was nice to hear from an editor a week or so later and we came to terms on use of quite a few of my pictures. Stand your ground irrespective of what your experience level is. You will certainly lose some but you will also win some that actually pay cash. Try taking that photo credit and put it in your bank account.

What was so enraging to Ellison about that incident was that they gave him the "good exposure for you" line when in fact it was his appearance in the video that was good exposure for them. His appearance was for their benefit, not vice versa.

That guys nailed it right on the head.

He covered the cheap arse people who want everything for nothing and the amateurs who undercut pros.

Having nothing against amateurs as I was once there, but amateurs who undercut pros with offering poor quality I have no respect for.


Well put old man.

I can somewhat relate to this story with an extremely recent event.

Last week, a friend recommended me to her boss to shoot a marathon. From his initial phone call, he seemed enthusiastic and eager to hire me. From what he told me over the phone, it implied like his company was the organizer/sponsor of the event and I was to be the official photographer. I was very stoked. He pestered me for a quote twice this week and since I was lacking details, I said I would have to ask him a few more questions before I could come up with one. Called him but he didn't pick up.

So yesterday I shot him an email with me questions, along with a tentative quote of $300 (and I was going to charge $700 too, but my friend who worked with him hinted that was too pricey), subject to change if he wanted anything extra outside of lots of images in digital format (DVD) - his demands/wants by the way, not mine.

He immediately calls me and starts on this thing where his company isn't actually the event organizer/sponsor, and that he just wanted these photos for the LOLZ so he could post them up online as a way to get promote his website when people went there to see their photos. He goes on this talk on how he's well connected and how great publicity this would be for me and my photography (saying I could even put my watermark on my photos); and how we could cross-promote each other: I take photos for him to post and have people HOPEFULLY visit his website, and people see my watermark on photos (if they even go to the website) and HOPEFULLY call me for my photography services.

This implied that he wasn't willing to pay that $300 I quoted him. This was confirmed (although never explicitly mentioned by him, which makes me think of him as a cunning person) when he even told me he had a $1000 camera (Some Rebel T-something) and that he could take those event photos on his own, just that he doesn't want to.

Needless to say, I said NOPE. No money, no deal. You can find some kid on the street with a camera to rip off; just because I don't have a full time job and currently am a student doesn't mean you can try to reap as much as you can out of me for free. No I'm not desperate for photography clients (photography isn't even my main job), I'm not desperate for local 'connections' because I would like to work in another city when I graduate (I just came here for school) and having had good experience and pay with freelance photography projects in the past back home, I'm not desperate to shoot for free for 'more experience' anytime soon.