Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 20 Oct 2012 (Saturday) 15:58
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Permissions for people on the street for a book?

 
tvphotog
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,093 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 37
Joined Aug 2007
Location: New York City
     
Oct 20, 2012 15:58 |  #1

I was engaged by a major publisher of art books to do a photo shoot in a major country for publication in a 200 page coffee-table-sized photo book.

I know from my journalism experience that people shot in public are fair game, as long as the photo captions are appropriate and not libelous.

Are their any permissions that I would need from individuals in public, even those who knew I was shooting for an art book and agreed to have their pictures taken?


Jay
Ireland in Word and Image (external link) Jay Ben Images (external link)5D IV | 5DS/R | Powershot S100 | 24-105L | 100-400 IIL | 16-35 f/2.8 IIL | 24 T/S f /3.5L II | 17 T/S f/4L | 50mm f/1.2L | 35mm f/1.4L | 70-200 f/2.8L II | 580 EX II | 600 EX-RT | Feisol 3441T/Markins Q3T lever QR | Gitzo 3542L Markins Qi20 BV-22 | Gitzo 5561T RRS MH-02

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
13,565 posts
Gallery: 146 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3762
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Oct 20, 2012 17:47 |  #2

tvphotog wrote in post #15147508 (external link)
I was engaged by a major publisher of art books to do a photo shoot in a major country for publication in a 200 page coffee-table-sized photo book.

I know from my journalism experience that people shot in public are fair game, as long as the photo captions are appropriate and not libelous.

Are their any permissions that I would need from individuals in public, even those who knew I was shooting for an art book and agreed to have their pictures taken?

The sentence in bold is FALSE.

Seems like your experience was limited to journalism, and did not cover commercial, fine art, or advertising work.

The only time an image of someone may be used without a signed model release is when it is used for editorial purposes. Photojournalism is editorial. A coffee-table art book is not editorial. At all. You absolutely need a release.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sspellman
Goldmember
Avatar
1,731 posts
Likes: 28
Joined Dec 2006
Location: Detroit, Michigan
     
Oct 20, 2012 17:49 |  #3

The legal department of the publisher is the right source for real legal advice not a random web forum.


ScottSpellmanMedia.com [photography]

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tvphotog
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,093 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 37
Joined Aug 2007
Location: New York City
     
Oct 20, 2012 17:53 |  #4

sspellman wrote in post #15147748 (external link)
The legal department of the publisher is the right source for real legal advice not a random web forum.

That's in the works. But it's the weekend.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #15147743 (external link)
The sentence in bold is FALSE.
Seems like your experience was limited to journalism, and did not cover commercial, fine art, or advertising work.
The only time an image of someone may be used without a signed model release is when it is used for editorial purposes. Photojournalism is editorial. A coffee-table art book is not editorial. At all. You absolutely need a release.

I disagree. First, I'm very familiar with commercial and advertising use of photos from my association with Getty Images. Additionally, below is from an Australian legal review. It applies generally in the Free World from what I've read:

"By the Federal Trade Practices Act 1974, photographs cannot be used for "commercial purposes" without the written consent of people in them... What is "commercial use"?

In a photo context it does not mean the sale of a picture, but rather the use of a person's likeness to endorse a product or service, or to entice others to buy it."

Art is clearly editorial, essentially an opinion or commentary.


Jay
Ireland in Word and Image (external link) Jay Ben Images (external link)5D IV | 5DS/R | Powershot S100 | 24-105L | 100-400 IIL | 16-35 f/2.8 IIL | 24 T/S f /3.5L II | 17 T/S f/4L | 50mm f/1.2L | 35mm f/1.4L | 70-200 f/2.8L II | 580 EX II | 600 EX-RT | Feisol 3441T/Markins Q3T lever QR | Gitzo 3542L Markins Qi20 BV-22 | Gitzo 5561T RRS MH-02

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
FlyingPhotog
Cream of the "Prop"
Avatar
57,560 posts
Likes: 142
Joined May 2007
Location: Probably Chasing Aircraft
     
Oct 20, 2012 17:59 |  #5

I have been present when Carolyn Wright has said that Editorial and Fine Art are interchangeable terms.

www.photoattorney.com (external link)


Jay
Crosswind Images (external link)
Facebook Fan Page (external link)

"If you aren't getting extraordinary images from today's dSLRs, regardless of brand, it's not the camera!" - Bill Fortney, Nikon Corp.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
maverick75
Cream of the Crop
5,707 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 613
Joined May 2012
Location: Riverside,California
     
Oct 20, 2012 18:05 |  #6

It depends on the city you're in, everyone has different laws.


- Alex Corona Sony A7, Canon 7DM2/EOS M, Mamiya 645/67
Flickr (external link) - 500px (external link) - Website (external link)- Feedback -Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tvphotog
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,093 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 37
Joined Aug 2007
Location: New York City
     
Oct 20, 2012 18:28 |  #7

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #15147779 (external link)
I have been present when Carolyn Wright has said that Editorial and Fine Art are interchangeable terms.

www.photoattorney.com (external link)

Thanks, Jay, that's what I'm looking for, personal experiences, until I get an opinion from legal. I'm also going to contact Carolyn to review the contract. She sounds like a great resource.


Jay
Ireland in Word and Image (external link) Jay Ben Images (external link)5D IV | 5DS/R | Powershot S100 | 24-105L | 100-400 IIL | 16-35 f/2.8 IIL | 24 T/S f /3.5L II | 17 T/S f/4L | 50mm f/1.2L | 35mm f/1.4L | 70-200 f/2.8L II | 580 EX II | 600 EX-RT | Feisol 3441T/Markins Q3T lever QR | Gitzo 3542L Markins Qi20 BV-22 | Gitzo 5561T RRS MH-02

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
12,997 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 536
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Oct 20, 2012 19:07 |  #8

maverick75 wrote in post #15147789 (external link)
It depends on the city you're in, everyone has different laws.

No, it doesn't. That particular area is a matter of the First Amendment, and it's been hashed out in the Supreme Court. The Constitutional concept is "free expression" which includes both journalism and art.

Ever heard of the "Girls Gone Wild" videos? Maybe you've seen the ads on late-night television. If not, you can Google it.

Guess what: The producer had no model releases. One woman sued him and lost. The court ruled no model release was needed to include the plaintiff’s image in the “Girls Gone Wild” video as long as her image/likeness was not used to promote another product or service.

The states have crafted their privacy laws around the Constitution, being careful not to limit an artist's Constitutional right to free expression except specifically in the promotion of another product or service.

Look at the case of photographer Philip-Lorca diCorcia. (external link)

In 2006, a New York trial court issued a ruling in a case involving one of his photographs. One of diCorcia's New York random subjects was Ermo Nussenzweig, an Orthodox Jew who objected on religious grounds to diCorcia's publishing in an artistic exhibition a photograph taken of him without his permission. The photo's subject argued that his privacy and religious rights had been violated by both the taking and publishing of the photograph of him. The judge dismissed the lawsuit, finding that the photograph taken of Nussenzweig on a street is art - not commerce - and therefore is protected by the First Amendment.[8]

Manhattan state Supreme Court Justice Judith J. Gische ruled that the photo of Nussenzweig—a head shot showing him sporting a scraggly white beard, a black hat and a black coat—was art, even though the photographer sold 10 prints of it at $20,000 to $30,000 each. The judge ruled that New York courts have "recognized that art can be sold, at least in limited editions, and still retain its artistic character (...) [F]irst [A]mendment protection of art is not limited to only starving artists. A profit motive in itself does not necessarily compel a conclusion that art has been used for trade purposes."[9]




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
magoosmc
Senior Member
Avatar
980 posts
Gallery: 80 photos
Likes: 485
Joined Jan 2012
Location: Keuka Lake NY
     
Oct 20, 2012 19:56 |  #9

Well worth reading: http://www.danheller.c​om/model-release-primer.html (external link)


https://www.flickr.com​/photos/22055591@N05/a​lbums (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,291 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1564
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Oct 20, 2012 21:37 |  #10

Tom Reichner wrote in post #15147743 (external link)
The only time an image of someone may be used without a signed model release is when it is used for editorial purposes. Photojournalism is editorial. A coffee-table art book is not editorial. At all. You absolutely need a release.

Wrong. You only need a release when you use an image for advertising/promotion/​marketing - referred to as "commercial use". The sale of images in a coffee table book does not require a release, nor does the sale of prints or the sale of the image and subsequent editorial use.


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tvphotog
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,093 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 37
Joined Aug 2007
Location: New York City
     
Oct 20, 2012 22:33 |  #11

Thanks alot. Very informative.


Jay
Ireland in Word and Image (external link) Jay Ben Images (external link)5D IV | 5DS/R | Powershot S100 | 24-105L | 100-400 IIL | 16-35 f/2.8 IIL | 24 T/S f /3.5L II | 17 T/S f/4L | 50mm f/1.2L | 35mm f/1.4L | 70-200 f/2.8L II | 580 EX II | 600 EX-RT | Feisol 3441T/Markins Q3T lever QR | Gitzo 3542L Markins Qi20 BV-22 | Gitzo 5561T RRS MH-02

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
xhack
Goldmember
Avatar
1,283 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Edinburgh, Lothian
     
Oct 21, 2012 06:23 |  #12

Dan Marchant wrote in post #15148293 (external link)
Wrong. You only need a release when you use an image for advertising/promotion/​marketing - referred to as "commercial use". The sale of images in a coffee table book does not require a release, nor does the same of prints or the sale of the image and subsequent editorial use.

^ ^ This is a succinct general summation of the legal position in both Scots and English law.

And this is not just the opinion of a board member with 30 years' knowledge of law as a journalist, but also the position of one niece who's an advocate (Scots barrister), and that of another legal-eagle niece who's editor of a law review publication.


~ Wallace
Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Old ­ Coot
Senior Member
Avatar
295 posts
Joined Apr 2009
Location: Alabama
     
Oct 21, 2012 08:29 as a reply to  @ xhack's post |  #13

Thanks to the OP for posting this question and to the others who responded. I learned a great deal from this discussion. That's why I love this forum :)


5d | 50d | 1d mii | Rebel G 35mm | Polaroid 100, 210, 360 | Bigma | Tokina 80-200 | Promaster 19-35 | 580ex | Olde Tyme Novatron strobes

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sspellman
Goldmember
Avatar
1,731 posts
Likes: 28
Joined Dec 2006
Location: Detroit, Michigan
     
Oct 21, 2012 09:40 |  #14

tvphotog wrote in post #15147762 (external link)
That's in the works. But it's the weekend.

I doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks except the Legal Department. Every book I have worked on included contracts and releases provided by the publisher, and not completing them according to their standard was a failure to complete the job properly.

You are correct that there is legal evidence in New York that photographs in art books do not require the permission of the subject, for example

http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Nussenzweig_v._​DiCorcia (external link)


ScottSpellmanMedia.com [photography]

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

2,335 views & 0 likes for this thread
Permissions for people on the street for a book?
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is bushpilot
917 guests, 240 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.