Backbiting

bayberry wrote in post #15247351
Well I am very thankful that the show management at my events are all incredibly supportive of me. They can (and do) throw out anyone with that kind of attitude on their asses and they aren't allowed back on the grounds. They WANT an ACTUAL professional there getting professional quality images. If they let anyone off the street poach from that professional they know they wouldn't be able to get one to cover their events ever again.

What's that have to do with shooting high school gigs?

Who called themselves a professional photographer in this scenario? Certainly not the OP and certainly not the people taking pictures to share with family and friends. I wouldn't want to be a pro photographer by any means. But amateurs are in fact lining up to shoot for free and they don't really care if you think you deserve to be paid and they feel they have the rights to take pictures. Schools are reluctant to tell parents they can't photograph their own kids.

tkbslc wrote in post #15247394
What's that have to do with shooting high school gigs?

Who called themselves a professional photographer in this scenario? Certainly not the OP and certainly not the people taking pictures to share with family and friends. I wouldn't want to be a pro photographer by any means. But amateurs are in fact lining up to shoot for free and they don't really care if you think you deserve to be paid and they feel they have the rights to take pictures. Schools are reluctant to tell parents they can't photograph their own kids.

Well, you said photographer. Just owning a camera doesn't make one a photographer any more than owning a car makes one a mechanic.

And I don't just "think" I deserve to be paid, and putting it in those words is incredibly insulting. I show up to my shows with a Nikon D700, Nikon D3s, an 80-200 2.8 lens, a 70-200 2.8, a 1x4 TC, a 35-70 2.8, a Really Right Stuff carbon fiber tripod, monopod, hoodman loupe, golf cart, and countless other items of gear, not to mention a lot of very hard earned experience. For each of my shows I have to take two weeks non-paid time off from my "regular" job and work anywhere from 12 to 18 hour days every single day for those two weeks. There are no breaks, no down time, I am on my feet all day rain or shine, sweltering heat or bitter cold. I have a business license, pay taxes, carry insurance, and have a signed contract with the show management granting me exclusive marketing rights to all images from the show. I work my ass off making the best, most professional quality images for them that I can. So yes, it is outrageously insulting when some self entitled belligerent "photographer" treats REAL photographers with such callous abandon like photography ISN'T a real profession and not deserving of the respect given any other profession.

I have no problem with people taking photos at the events I cover. I actually am so sweet to people it would make your teeth hurt. Quite often you will find spectators with cameras coming to ME for advice on settings and techniques to improve their images and I help every single one of them that are NICE and RESPECTFUL. Most of the people I meet at my shows are lovely people and I really enjoy them. I can quite happily geek out on photography all day long to any unfortunate soul who has the misfortune to show interest. But if I run across anyone who is as rudely disrespectful as you without a care in the world as to poaching business from me and actually thinks they are entitled to it then I will have the management remove you so fast you won't know what hit you.

bayberry wrote in post #15247489
Well, you said photographer. Just owning a camera doesn't make one a photographer any more than owning a car makes one a mechanic.

And I don't just "think" I deserve to be paid, and putting it in those words is incredibly insulting. I show up to my shows with a Nikon D700, Nikon D3s, an 80-200 2.8 lens, a 70-200 2.8, a 1x4 TC, a 35-70 2.8, a Really Right Stuff carbon fiber tripod, monopod, hoodman loupe, golf cart, and countless other items of gear, not to mention a lot of very hard earned experience. For each of my shows I have to take two weeks non-paid time off from my "regular" job and work anywhere from 12 to 18 hour days every single day for those two weeks. There are no breaks, no down time, I am on my feet all day rain or shine, sweltering heat or bitter cold. I have a business license, pay taxes, carry insurance, and have a signed contract with the show management granting me exclusive marketing rights to all images from the show. I work my ass off making the best, most professional quality images for them that I can. So yes, it is outrageously insulting when some self entitled belligerent "photographer" treats REAL photographers with such callous abandon like photography ISN'T a real profession and not deserving of the respect given any other profession.

I have no problem with people taking photos at the events I cover. I actually am so sweet to people it would make your teeth hurt. Quite often you will find spectators with cameras coming to ME for advice on settings and techniques to improve their images and I help every single one of them that are NICE and RESPECTFUL. Most of the people I meet at my shows are lovely people and I really enjoy them. I can quite happily geek out on photography all day long to any unfortunate soul who has the misfortune to show interest. But if I run across anyone who is as rudely disrespectful as you without a care in the world as to poaching business from me and actually thinks they are entitled to it then I will have the management remove you so fast you won't know what hit you.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Other professions aren't given "respect" by your definition. I grill up a bunch of steaks for my family at home, for fun and enjoyment, regardless of how much work has gone into creating the local steakhouse. I have changed my own oil, regardless of how sad the lube express owner is that I didn't respect his investment. I built my own computer, which totally slaps Dell right in the face, and I take my own damned pictures because I like to.

The fact that you keep using the phrase "REAL" photographer means you have quite a complex and you feel the threat. So I am sorry, but like I said, photography is something people do for fun. If you can get people to pay you for it, great, but don't expect everyone to stop having fun so you can get paid.

The irony is that you just mentioned you have a real job that isn't photography, so you are taking money from actual photography professionals. You are just a moonlighter.

Wait an 80-200 and a 70-200 and a monopod and tripod? Say whatttttttt

tkbslc wrote in post #15247666
Other professions aren't given "respect" by your definition. I grill up a bunch of steaks for my family at home, for fun and enjoyment, regardless of how much work has gone into creating the local steakhouse. I have changed my own oil, regardless of how sad the lube express owner is that I didn't respect his investment. I built my own computer, which totally slaps Dell right in the face, and I take my own damned pictures because I like to.

The fact that you keep using the phrase "REAL" photographer means you have quite a complex and you feel the threat. So I am sorry, but like I said, photography is something people do for fun. If you can get people to pay you for it, great, but don't expect everyone to stop having fun so you can get paid.

The irony is that you just mentioned you have a real job that isn't photography, so you are taking money from actual photography professionals. You are just a moonlighter.

But you aren't setting up your grill outside of the local steakhouse and selling your steaks to people about to go in.

I do have to give it to you though, the term "real" photographer is quite condescending and I humbly take that back. My intended meaning was professional photographer. There are plenty of people who are hobbyists that do simply breathtaking work. A professional photographer to me is one that makes their living at it and runs it as a business with a business license, taxes, insurance etc.

While you may consider me a "moonlighter" because I hold two jobs, I have to disagree. The majority of my annual income is from photography and it is run as a business with all of the related expenses and responsibilities, it's not just a hobby. It just so happens that what I mainly shoot is seasonal. A teacher isn't any less of a teacher if they happen to do something else for income in the summer are they? I am a woman supporting myself and I do what I have to to make ends meet. I am just lucky that the majority of what I do is something I have a passion for.

And as I have said before, I don't even bat an eye at all of the people photographing my shows. It's normal, it's expected. I would never begrudge parents photographing their children, or hobbyists enjoying their hobby. A LOT of the time I am standing side by side with someone else photographing at my shows and have enjoyable conversations with them while doing it. I am not in the least bit threatened. But I take exception to someone knowingly trying to cut into my income. It's just business. I would never go to another photographers wedding and knowingly cut into their print sales, and I would never go to another photographers sporting event and knowingly cut into their sales.

I have friends who have asked me to come to their shows that I am not the OP for and photograph them. I decline every time. They argue that they would much rather have photos from me than from the OP and they would never buy from that person anyway so it's not like they would be losing sales with me there. I flatly refuse. And you know what? They usually end up purchasing from the OP even if they swore they wouldn't. I most definitely would have been taking money out of the OP's pocket by being there. That is something I wouldn't even think about doing to someone. I just don't understand why you would consider it a negative thing to respect a professional photographers business?

Professional photographers are simply photographers who make their living from taking photographs. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are better photographers. If the "official" photographer in this case is a professional, then I can understand why he would feel his job is being undermined by someone else shooting from the sidelines & I would respect his position. But if he is just another amateur, with a seperate career, I'd tend to ignore him & keep shooting. It really depends on what the term "official" means in this case. Does he have exclusive rights from the school?

ajaffe wrote in post #15247706
Wait an 80-200 and a 70-200 and a monopod and tripod? Say whatttttttt

Most every photographer has back up equipment on hand in case of equipment failure. And yes, tripod and monopod. Which one I use depends on the arena set up. There are 4 arenas at the shows I shoot and they are all different. Hence the golf cart. Way too much gear to haul around and the show grounds cover a very large area.

Bayberry, slightly OT but I have just looked at your previous posts, you do very nice work

neil_r wrote in post #15247752
Bayberry, slightly OT but I have just looked at your previous posts, you do very nice work

Thank you Neil.

bayberry wrote in post #15247734
I just don't understand why you would consider it a negative thing to respect a professional photographers business?

The negative part is professionals expecting others to stop taking pictures and implying you are the only one that deserves to have a camera. I like taking pictures and sharing them with others only increases my enjoyment.

tkbslc wrote in post #15248743
The negative part is professionals expecting others to stop taking pictures and implying you are the only one that deserves to have a camera.

Wow, really? That is what you got from what I wrote? You are either seriously lacking in writing comprehension skills or you are just being a nasty, spiteful individual spouting untruths out like a small child.

Which again is totally fine, until you start having an effect on someones livelihood. But no one is ever going to change your mind if you have absolutely no thought for others and could care less about stepping on them so you can have a little fun and do so while figuratively flipping them off. Just don't be surprised when some people might take offense.

To me the only thing that allows one photographer to make money at these type of events is controlling access to the good shooting locations. The price of entry in terms of financial investment is just too low that it allows anyone with a bit of cash to purchase a camera and lens capable of decent shots. Control access to the object of desire and you control who makes the money, plain and simple. This is why you cant get where you want a majority of the time, other than safety aspects and risk management on behalf of the event producers. It is sad when access control is left up to the photographers who have an investment in their activity vice event producer. Examples: Olympics, NFL, NBA, music concerts, etc. most are OK with a cell phone or P&S or lens length restriction from the cheap seats.

ChunkyDA wrote in post #15251254
To me the only thing that allows one photographer to make money at these type of events is controlling access to the good shooting locations. The price of entry in terms of financial investment is just too low that it allows anyone with a bit of cash to purchase a camera and lens capable of decent shots. Control access to the object of desire and you control who makes the money, plain and simple. This is why you cant get where you want a majority of the time, other than safety aspects and risk management on behalf of the event producers. It is sad when access control is left up to the photographers who have an investment in their activity vice event producer. Examples: Olympics, NFL, NBA, music concerts, etc. most are OK with a cell phone or P&S or lens length restriction from the cheap seats.

Last two posts by Chunky and bayberry are dead on. Just because you have a camera and are a parent does not entitle you access to the sidelines. Further more when you somehow gain access with intent to deny the pro with a contract for an event sales?
Well, forum rules don't allow me to express my true feelings
Pond scum would be a good start though.

bayberry wrote in post #15248842
Which again is totally fine, until you start having an effect on someones livelihood. But no one is ever going to change your mind if you have absolutely no thought for others and could care less about stepping on them so you can have a little fun and do so while figuratively flipping them off. Just don't be surprised when some people might take offense.

You are having an effect on someone else's livelihood, too! You have the job because someone else doesn't. This life is all a big selfish merry-go-round.

Seriously, you don't ever do anything for yourself or anyone else because there might be a professional who wants to make money providing that service? I take offense that you think your "livelihood" (a.k.a. second job) is more important than other's money and time.