Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 19 Nov 2012 (Monday) 22:30
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Confused about color space!

 
jeljohns
Senior Member
334 posts
Joined Nov 2009
     
Nov 19, 2012 22:30 |  #1

I recently took a lr4 class as a refresher. The instructor recommended we work in ProPhoto workspace. So I switched that and also photoshop so they would match. Tonight I was getting ready to order prints from ProDpi and their website says they accept files ONLY in sRGB. I also use a Spyder to calibrate my monitor, so for Photoshop it was changed to the embedded profile before I changed it to ProPhoto. What exactly should I be using!?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
Scatterbrained
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,420 posts
Gallery: 217 photos
Best ofs: 11
Likes: 4109
Joined Jan 2010
Location: Chula Vista, CA
     
Nov 19, 2012 22:39 |  #2

What I do is go to "edit>convert to profile> sRGB" after I'm done working on an image in Ps. In lightroom you can select the sRGB option in the export dialog box. I use ProPhoto as my working space however.


VanillaImaging.com (external link)"Vacuous images for the Vapid consumer"
500px (external link)
flickr (external link)
1x (external link)
instagram (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jeljohns
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
334 posts
Joined Nov 2009
     
Nov 19, 2012 22:42 |  #3

Thanks! Although I have a Spyder I've never really learned how it works. I run it...and that's it....I never know what to do with the color profile it creates.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dmward
Cream of the Crop
9,081 posts
Gallery: 29 photos
Likes: 1525
Joined Jun 2009
Location: Metro Chicago
     
Nov 19, 2012 23:02 |  #4

Lightroom uses the ProPhoto color space as its default. It can't be changed. Technically, its not ProPhoto because they use a different gamma but for practical purpose consider it PP-RGB.
Lightroom is a parametric editing program, which means that none of the edits you apply using the develop module are applied until you output the image using one of the output or export functions.
Each of those permit selecting, or select by default a color space appropriate to the output.

So, with the print module you have the option to output to JPG and assign a color space, sRGB (most common for commercial and consumer C-Prints), aRGB come commercial labs for C-Prints, or any printer/paper ICC profile combination.

Another option is to output via the export function, which also permits assigning a profile.
The web module defaults to sRGB since that is the web standard screen profile.

Although I haven't used it, the book module probably defaults to a profile optimized for BLURB.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Nov 20, 2012 00:04 |  #5

jeljohns wrote in post #15266523 (external link)
Thanks! Although I have a Spyder I've never really learned how it works. I run it...and that's it....I never know what to do with the color profile it creates.

Absolutely nothing: You create the profile and the OS takes care of the rest.
LR and PS will know where to look for it. You do not set it anywhere in PS or LR.

DPP might need to be told what your monitor profile is though…

For your workflow, IMO it would be easier to work in sRGB throughout.
If you don't want that, use Edit>Convert to profile in PS to convert to sRGB. Be aware all colors outside sRGB gamut will be clipped in this conversion.

dmward wrote in post #15266574 (external link)
So, with the print module you have the option to output to JPG and assign a color space, sRGB (most common for commercial and consumer C-Prints), aRGB come commercial labs for C-Prints, or any printer/paper ICC profile combination.

Another option is to output via the export function, which also permits assigning a profile.

Semantics: I'd rather use the word "embed" then "assign", since it has absolutely no relation to the PS command "Assign profile"…


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
arumdevil
Senior Member
Avatar
649 posts
Joined May 2004
Location: UK
     
Nov 20, 2012 10:24 |  #6

I think, unless you invest a modest amount of time reading up on and learning about colour profiles enough that you don't have any confusion on the matter, you should just stick to sRGB.

A few years back I read loads of stuff on it, decided to use the adobeRGB colourspace and adjusted the necessary settings in camera, PS etc. But honestly I found it all more hassle than it was worth as most of my pictures go to the web, and those that I print are done by an online service that requires sRGB anyway, so it was just adding more steps to the workflow and confusion over time as the various details of how it all works faded in my memory.

I now set the camera to sRGB, same in PS, and I use aperture so that is also set to sRGB. If I open a file that has another profile I simply convert. Simple.

If you understand it all, have time for the potential extra steps and can actually see the benefit, then by all means use another color space but otherwise there's little if any benefit and it's more hassle than it's worth.

That's just my opinion. Add salt if needed.


Regards, arum.
"Originality is merely an illusion" M.C.Escher

6D | 50 f/1.4 USM | 28 f/1.8 USM | 24 f/2.8 | 70-210 f/4 | YN560-II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jeljohns
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
334 posts
Joined Nov 2009
     
Nov 20, 2012 11:17 |  #7

Thanks arum that makes sense. I understand that ProPhoto is supposed to have more colors available to work with, but if all my labs require sRGB I should probably work with that.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BrandonSi
Nevermind.. I'm silly.
Avatar
5,306 posts
Gallery: 62 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 144
Joined Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
     
Nov 20, 2012 12:07 |  #8

arumdevil wrote in post #15268038 (external link)
I now set the camera to sRGB, same in PS, and I use aperture so that is also set to sRGB. If I open a file that has another profile I simply convert. Simple.

If you understand it all, have time for the potential extra steps and can actually see the benefit, then by all means use another color space but otherwise there's little if any benefit and it's more hassle than it's worth.

I do exactly the same. I have enough trouble with sRGB and various monitors as it is. I have no desire to add another layer of complexity to the process when 99% of my stuff goes to the web and is never printed.


[ www (external link)· flickr (external link)]

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
arumdevil
Senior Member
Avatar
649 posts
Joined May 2004
Location: UK
     
Nov 20, 2012 12:38 |  #9

The more colours argument is only significant it you will process the photo in a way that it will actually use those extra colours anyway. And then, your output medium still needs to support that colour space in order to display those colours anway. So again if you're only publishing to web, or printing to a place that requires sRGB files, it's pointless.

It's really simple, if you need something else such as aRGB etc, and you understand why and how it all works including in your workflow, then use it. If you don't understand all that, carry on with sRGB.

Later, if you gain a better understanding AND you see a benefit, then by all means change your workflow to accommodate it.


Regards, arum.
"Originality is merely an illusion" M.C.Escher

6D | 50 f/1.4 USM | 28 f/1.8 USM | 24 f/2.8 | 70-210 f/4 | YN560-II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tzalman
Fatal attraction.
Avatar
13,477 posts
Likes: 197
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Gesher Haziv, Israel
     
Nov 20, 2012 16:49 |  #10

Lightroom uses a special variation of ProPhoto RGB as its internal work space. This is fixed and not something that the user can control. What you can control is what space the image is converted to after all the editing has been done and the image is transferred to PSCS. Your instructor evidently believes that only a minimal change should be done at that point and the bigger conversion to sRGB should be deferred until the end of the PSCS editing. There are both pros and cons to this workflow and there would be no point to elucidating them here, but like the others above, I think that unless you are advanced in your understanding of color management the best policy for you would be to let LR do the conversion to sRGB.


Elie / אלי

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tonylong
...winded
Avatar
54,657 posts
Gallery: 60 photos
Likes: 544
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
     
Nov 20, 2012 21:21 |  #11

One thing you can now do with Lightroom in the Develop module (not the Library module) is use Soft Proofing for images that may have colors that are out of the gamut of your "target" color space (typically colors that are real bright/rich). The Soft Proof "function" allows you to softproof for your display gamut or a print "profile" but it can also be used to "proof" your "destination color space".

This can be useful if the image has rich/bright colors. If you check Lightroom's "normal" histogram, it reflects the ProPhoto color space and, assuming you correctly exposed, colors in the histogram will look "in range" since our camera sensors can capture a wide gamut of colors and the LR ProPhoto gamut can handle a wide range of colors.What is not evident is the possibility that the bright, rich, saturated colors may push beyond the sRGB gamut or the Adobe RGB gamut.

This is where Soft Proofing comes in. It has three features that can be useful. First and foremost is the histogram, which reflects your destination color space. For example, I did a three classic car show shoots this last summer, with plenty of richly colorful cars, bathing in the light of bright sunny days. Well, in Lightroom's "normal" mode the histograms show all the colors "in range". But, if I press the "S" key, turning on Soft Proofing, the histogram tells a different story, with the brightest colors jammed up against the wall! This can also be the case with colorful flowers, an colorful garments and other colorful subjects.

Another useful tool is to show Destination Gamut Warning (Shift-"S"). Do this and you will get a "visual" of what the histogram showed you -- a bright red "overlay" will cover the areas that are out of your destination gamut. Scary stuff, if you shoot colorful subjects.

The third feature is that in the Soft Proof mode the Preview is rendered using the Destination gamut. If the Preview differs from the "normal" preview, well, that's a hint of problems you might encounter in a print or Web presentation.

I should say, though, that how the Preview displays will vary from monitor to monitor. In a "consumer" monitor, your monitor gamut will not handle wide gamut colors, so you won't be really viewing an image in the ProPhoto color space in the "normal" preview, or even in image in the Adobe RGB, so it's unpredictable how much the Soft Proof preview will show you.

Then, the question is, what should we do about those colors that show "clipping"?

Well, that's a good question, but it's one that doesn't have a simple answer! For example, I've put some of those car show shots out on my Web host without a problem. But, there have been times when I've "tweaked" colors that I knew would clip. How you handle these things of course would vary on the "questionable" image and then on your judgement and preference!


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
Tony Long Photos on PBase (external link)
Wildlife project pics here (external link), Biking Photog shoots here (external link), "Suburbia" project here (external link)! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics here (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dmward
Cream of the Crop
9,081 posts
Gallery: 29 photos
Likes: 1525
Joined Jun 2009
Location: Metro Chicago
     
Nov 20, 2012 21:59 |  #12

René Damkot wrote in post #15266722 (external link)
Absolutely nothing: You create the profile and the OS takes care of the rest.
LR and PS will know where to look for it. You do not set it anywhere in PS or LR.

DPP might need to be told what your monitor profile is though…

For your workflow, IMO it would be easier to work in sRGB throughout.
If you don't want that, use Edit>Convert to profile in PS to convert to sRGB. Be aware all colors outside sRGB gamut will be clipped in this conversion.



Semantics: I'd rather use the word "embed" then "assign", since it has absolutely no relation to the PS command "Assign profile"…

René, That's probably a more accurate way to describe the process. Lightroom is so much easier for printing than PS, I cringe when I think I may have to print from it. :-)

The only time I've had a color space problem with Lightroom was attempting to "embed" a printer's CYMK ICC profile in a TIFF file. I think it was because it was converting RGB to CMYK which, unless I'm missing something is beyond Lightroom.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,011 posts
Gallery: 543 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1624
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
     
Nov 21, 2012 04:58 |  #13

As a relatively new user of LR I think I have a workflow that is fairly consistent with colour management. I import the RAW file into LR and process as necessary. If I need pixel editing I then export to PSCS5 as a 16 bit ProPhoto PSD. Once the PS edit is finished I bring the PSD file back into LR. I then export web files from LR in sRGB or print to my local printer from the print modual. If I need to send an image out to a lab I use the print to file using the profile recommended by the lab. For all these output options I use the Soft proofing options with the apropriate profile selected. I normally do this by creating a VC so that I can add the required crop for paper size and any other small tweeks that necessary for that particular output option.

Is this a good approach. As others have said I really have had problems printing from. PS in the past using CS3.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Lowner
"I'm the original idiot"
Avatar
12,924 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Salisbury, UK.
     
Nov 21, 2012 05:35 |  #14

dmward wrote in post #15270645 (external link)
René, That's probably a more accurate way to describe the process. Lightroom is so much easier for printing than PS, I cringe when I think I may have to print from it. :-)

The only time I've had a color space problem with Lightroom was attempting to "embed" a printer's CYMK ICC profile in a TIFF file. I think it was because it was converting RGB to CMYK which, unless I'm missing something is beyond Lightroom.

Not sure why you find Photoshop printing so daunting. Its how I print and is extremely straightforward. I generally use "Print with Preview" and simply let the dialogue boxes lead me through. I had a particular reason to want a CMYK colour space* myself very recently and it was not a problem at all.

*Note: I do mean colour space and not a CMYK ICC profile, so we might not be talking about the same thing here?


Richard

http://rcb4344.zenfoli​o.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tzalman
Fatal attraction.
Avatar
13,477 posts
Likes: 197
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Gesher Haziv, Israel
     
Nov 21, 2012 09:44 |  #15

*Note: I do mean colour space and not a CMYK ICC profile, so we might not be talking about the same thing here?

An ICC profile is a computer file that defines a color space; its primaries,whether RGB or CYM, its tone curve, either a gamma curve or a different one, and usually, if it is a device space, a LUT. Simply put, the profile describes the space. You can't have one without the other.


Elie / אלי

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

3,341 views & 0 likes for this thread
Confused about color space!
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is fitactions
609 guests, 242 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.