Post your Wide Open + Neutral Density + Strobe(s) photos

huntersdad wrote in post #15333393
EDIT: I see 328iGuy beat me by seconds with the same question.

Hopefully he can answer for both of us....

Read this whole thread between midnight and 3am. Very compelling stuff, and complicated. And, fabulous!

So, let me see if I can re-cap (blast away if this is an incorrect understanding). I am doing this because it's been one long, hard read and others may be slogging through the same confusion:

We're talking specifically about controlling ambient light during the daytime when it's dang bright out.

Dang bright out = when people are more likely to be available, and when events often happen.

Mid-day photos with uncontrolled ambient light (i.e. dang bright out) don't yield the desired look for many end-use applications (portraits, marketing, artistic expression, etc.).

Using the Sunny 16 rule (f/16, ISO 100, SS 1/100), DOF is too deep for the look desired for this type of photography (OOF backgrounds, nice bokeh) when ISO is at the lowest setting for a typical DSLR.

Shallower DOF requires wider apertures, which would push SS past the max sync speed of the camera (typically 1/200 to 1/250), since ISO can't go lower than 100 for typical DSLRs.

Ap of f/2.8 seems to be a common target. On my 5D3, at 100mm, f/2.8, 15 feet from subject gives DOF of 1.14 feet. f/4 gives DOF of 1.61 feet. A working distance of 15 feet from the subject, at 200mm f/2.8, DOF is a mere .28 feet.

ND filters are used to bring all light (ambient + flash/strobe) down to levels that permit the artificial light (strobe/flash) to compete (control ) the sun.

Good ND filters aren't cheap. Cheap filters are crap with color casts. Variable NDs avoid having to purchase and stack multiple filters to achieve the desired light-stopping levels.

77mm seems to be the most popular filter size, with step-up rings available to get other filter ring sizes (58, 72, etc.) up to 77mm to avoid having to purchase multiple NDs in different sizes.

4x6 filters in the Lee foundation system (or, ick, Cokin) aren't the preferred approach to using NDs for this type of photography . . . circular filters, specifically variable NDs like Singh Ray work better but will set you back $340 to $400 (thin-mount is more expensive).

Strobes, instead of speedlites/speedlights are recommended.

The math on that confuses me (strobe output power vs speedlite output) - can someone please explain or demonstrate speedlight output in more detail for this application?

Rats - lost my train of thought (at work).

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Now, personally . . . I have 3 600EX-RTs and a ST-E3-RT transmitter because that is what works for me for other work/fun (lightweight, portable, wireless, battery-operated). I am pining to use them for this type of photography vs. shelling out for strobes and a portable power pack and wireless transmitter/receivers.

And, I need more subjects. My kids, cats and employees run like hell when they see me take out my camera after being on POTN.

328iGuy wrote in post #15333387
5WOL3...curious as to what stop of ND you are using generally? 4-stop with full power strobe?

I use the Singh-Ray vary-ND. I shoot anywhere from 2 to 8 stops all the time. That picture of her with the little kid was approximately 2 stops I think, while her individual portrait was around 4-5 stops. I think the strobe here was 1/8th power.. it was around 5pm but a little overcast so there wasn't any direct sun coming onto the subjects.

huntersdad wrote in post #15333393
Manav, assuming you use a variable ND filter, do you find yourself shooting at 1/2 to full power most of the time?

I agree with the poster above that your pictures are awesome.

EDIT: I see 328iGuy beat me by seconds with the same question.

If I shoot from 12-4pm on a very sunny day I am mostly on full power. If I shoot from 12-4pm, but in bushes / jungles where the sun is coming through the trees then its normally around 1/8th power.

Anytime after 4pm you can get away with approx 1/4th or less power anywhere outdoors.

Ofcourse all these settings are for an Einstein, other more powerful strobes like the Elinchrom Ranger AS would need even less power to get these shots.

Note: I own 2 einsteins and carry them around with me on almost every shoot. While this might be inconvenient for most people, I like the fact that they cost less (compared to lets say an elinchrom ranger AS pack and head). The two lights allow me to get more creative with lighting, and even though they are less powerful individually compared to a Elinchrom Ranger, them two combined can put out some serious amount of flash power!

Thanks Manav. You answered while I was composing my summary.

So, an Einstein. What are you using to trigger it? After shelling out so much for the 600EX-RTs, I would be thrilled if I could avoid the costs of PWs. Yongnou?

I'll look through your gallery to find shots for more info.

alintx wrote in post #15333559
The math on that confuses me (strobe output power vs speedlite output) - can someone please explain or demonstrate speedlight output in more detail for this application?

While speedlites are portable and easy to use, they just don't put out enough power to overpower the sun during mid-day. If you wish to do that, then you might need many speedlites.. lets say 6-8.. at which point its not very portable (and way more expensive compared to having one strobe).

From my experience (very subjective) one of my strobes (einstein) probably puts out same amount of power as 6-8 600ex-rt flashes (I have 4 of them). now 6-8 600ex-rt's will cost you anywhere around around $3000+, as where one of these strobes will cost you $500. And then you will have issues with finding decent modifiers with speedlites.

I love my speedlites for indoor use, where power isn't an issue and I need more ETTL features & focus assist beams.. but i never use them outdoors.

Edit: I use CST / Cybersync system to trigger my einsteins.

Thank you for sharing your learning curve!

5W0L3 wrote in post #15333563
I use the Singh-Ray vary-ND. I shoot anywhere from 2 to 8 stops all the time. That picture of her with the little kid was approximately 2 stops I think, while her individual portrait was around 4-5 stops. I think the strobe here was 1/8th power.. it was around 5pm but a little overcast so there wasn't any direct sun coming onto the subjects.

If I shoot from 12-4pm on a very sunny day I am mostly on full power. If I shoot from 12-4pm, but in bushes / jungles where the sun is coming through the trees then its normally around 1/8th power.

Anytime after 4pm you can get away with approx 1/4th or less power anywhere outdoors.

Ofcourse all these settings are for an Einstein, other more powerful strobes like the Elinchrom Ranger AS would need even less power to get these shots.

Note: I own 2 einsteins and hall them around with me on almost every shoot. While this might be inconvenient for most people, I like the fact that they cost less (compared to lets say an elinchrom ranger AS pack and head). The two lights allow me to get more creative with lighting, and even though they are less powerful individually compared to a Elinchrom Ranger, them two combined can put out some serious amount of flash power!

Just what I was wanting to know, thanks a lot!! Time to shoot now!

B plus W 1.8 ND into the sunset

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Very cool Chester. It looks like a texture overlay.

Wow Chester! That's an amazing photo! Great skin tones too!

hey chester.. did you shoot that with an einstein? if so, how much power? (if you remember)

JakAHearts wrote in post #15338999
Very cool Chester. It looks like a texture overlay.

Thanks Shane, yes sir.

CircuitR wrote in post #15339972
Wow Chester! That's an amazing photo! Great skin tones too!

Thank you

5W0L3 wrote in post #15340162
hey chester.. did you shoot that with an einstein? if so, how much power? (if you remember)

Full power Manav on the AB1600.

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So I finally got a filter. Tiffen 2-8 stop ND.
I did some practice shots to see how it works, and learn the limitations of my AB800.
All at either 1.4 (50mm) or 1.8 (85mm)

ootsk wrote in post #15371961
So I finally got a filter. Tiffen 2-8 stop ND.
I did some practice shots to see how it works, and learn the limitations of my AB800.
All at either 1.4 (50mm) or 1.8 (85mm)

I definitely like the depth portrayed in that second shot for sure. Nice job. Were you at full power with the AB800?