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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 12 Dec 2012 (Wednesday) 18:13
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Glass before body? Hmm...nah.

 
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Dec 19, 2012 23:46 |  #91

nonick wrote in post #15388210 (external link)
Honestly I dont care about body first or glasses first rule.. I buy what I want and what I need when i can afford.

Yep :cool:


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Dec 20, 2012 00:16 |  #92

nonick wrote in post #15388210 (external link)
Honestly I dont care about body first or glasses first rule.. I buy what I want and what I need when i can afford.

bw!


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marsaz
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Dec 20, 2012 00:18 as a reply to  @ post 15388210 |  #93

To the argument above:
So you do agree that body upgrade is justified AFTER you've got lenses you actually need to shoot what you want to shoot.

Nobody is saying body upgrade is not worth the money it's just that glass makes more sense in most cases. BUT it's always the question of what you want and what you need to achieve that.

For the glass before body point. You don't need top of the line L lenses. Most of the cheap primes can deliver great results and you can get a few of those along with a rebel all for the price of 5d mk2 body. At least in here where i am that is.

And if you're shooting sports. Lens or body? You just have to choose between more keepers and better keepers. In the end you'll get both anyway. We are talking about priorities here. The question here is which should you get first.


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kin2son
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Dec 20, 2012 00:29 |  #94
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marsaz wrote in post #15388284 (external link)
And if you're shooting sports. Lens or body? You just have to choose between more keepers and better keepers. In the end you'll get both anyway. We are talking about priorities here. The question here is which should you get first.

Let's see (price from where I live) -

7D + 70-200mkII = ~$3500
5D3 + 70-200f4 = ~$3500

Obviously the crop kit has 'more zoom', but if you are not reach limited by too much, I'd pick the ff kit.

More MP, much better high ISO and AF.


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marsaz
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Dec 20, 2012 00:53 |  #95

kin2son wrote in post #15388300 (external link)
Let's see (price from where I live) -

7D + 70-200mkII = ~$3500
5D3 + 70-200f4 = ~$3500

Obviously the crop kit has 'more zoom', but if you are not reach limited by too much, I'd pick the ff kit.

More MP, much better high ISO and AF.

What kind of comparison is that?
great body and awesome lens versus awesome body and great lens...

Or in other words great combo vs great combo. For me this doesn't go against glass before body advice. Doesn't go the opposite way either. :rolleyes:


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kin2son
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Dec 20, 2012 01:02 |  #96
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marsaz wrote in post #15388362 (external link)
What kind of comparison is that?
great body and awesome lens versus awesome body and great lens...

Or in other words great combo vs great combo. For me this doesn't go against glass before body advice. Doesn't go the opposite way either. :rolleyes:

well it's all subjective...fyi I don't consider 70-200f4 'great' ;)

How much are you really going to save if you swap the 7D for something less say a 60D or 650D? $250 max?

And swapping the 7D for another cheaper/lower level crop body will simply emphasis body is just as important as lens, especially when it comes to sports shooting. :)

Point is you can have the best f2.8 zoom on the best crop, and it's still won't match an awesome ff body with one of the cheapest tele in Canon's lineup.


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Sirrith
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Dec 20, 2012 01:20 |  #97

kin2son wrote in post #15388300 (external link)
Let's see (price from where I live) -

7D + 70-200mkII = ~$3500
5D3 + 70-200f4 = ~$3500

Obviously the crop kit has 'more zoom', but if you are not reach limited by too much, I'd pick the ff kit.

More MP, much better high ISO and AF.

Well since we're using examples that clearly favour our arguments, how about:
5DIII body + no lens at $2975
or
7D + 70-200 f4 IS + 15-85 IS (or sigma 17-50 OS), at ~$2948, + a bus ticket & sandwich on the photo trip you are able to take with the $27 saved on the 5DIII body?

I wonder which would take better photos? ;)


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Dec 20, 2012 01:34 |  #98
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Sirrith wrote in post #15388411 (external link)
Well since we're using examples that clearly favour our arguments, how about:
5DIII body + no lens at $2975
or
7D + 70-200 f4 IS + 15-85 IS (or sigma 17-50 OS), at ~$2948, + a bus ticket & sandwich on the photo trip you are able to take with the $27 saved on the 5DIII body?

I wonder which would take better photos? ;)

Well my suggestion was based on sports shooting, so a lens is required :)

Now 5D3 + 70-200f4 non-IS is ~$3500 like i mentioned.

To get similar results, 7D + 70-200 f4 (IS or not) is not going to cut it, especially indoor. (again assuming you are not too limited by reach).

So I think my point still stands. For sports shooting, you can have the best crop body with the best glass, but a ff body such as 5D3 will still produce better results with the cheapest L tele. Better high ISO, superior AF and more MP (to crop a bit to match the reach disadvantage).

All I am trying to say is body can be just as important as good glass depending on your intended use.


5D3 Gripped / 17-40L / Σ35 / 40 Pancake / Zeiss 50 MP / Σ85 / 100L Macro / 70-200 f2.8L II IS / 430 EX II / 580 EX II / Canon 2xIII TC / Kenko Ext. Tubes
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Dec 20, 2012 01:57 |  #99

kin2son wrote in post #15388431 (external link)
Well my suggestion was based on sports shooting, so a lens is required :)

Now 5D3 + 70-200f4 non-IS is ~$3500 like i mentioned.

To get similar results, 7D + 70-200 f4 (IS or not) is not going to cut it, especially indoor. (again assuming you are not too limited by reach).

So I think my point still stands. For sports shooting, you can have the best crop body with the best glass, but a ff body such as 5D3 will still produce better results with the cheapest L tele. Better high ISO, superior AF and more MP (to crop a bit to match the reach disadvantage).

All I am trying to say is body can be just as important as good glass depending on your intended use.

If it is for a very specific situation such as indoor sports, then yes, I agree with you.


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marsaz
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Dec 20, 2012 01:57 as a reply to  @ kin2son's post |  #100

You are talking about shooting indoor sports. That's a very specific case. Now, since when 70-200 non IS f4 is not a great lense? It's sharp and light. Also IS will not do anything for you when shooting sports.

Superior AF? While true on paper have you ever shot sports with 7D and thought "this AF is not good enough"? Outdoors 7D with 70-200 f4 would get you great shots. As long as you do your job.

Also spending huge pile of money to upgrade from 70-200 f4 to 70-200 2.8 is II is not the best example of a lense upgrade. Also as the guy above pointed out you still need glass and since you already have 70-200 of some kind (in this example) body is coming after you already purchased that.


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Dec 20, 2012 02:04 |  #101

an interesting discussion here and many people taking it in many different directions - sometimes with out mentioning it specifically in the post :)

but if I can add one more anecdote. Before i purchased my first DSLR ever (the 7D), I read and researched about bodies and lenses in my specific budget range and on my list were also options for a lesser budget range. In my specific case, I saw that it would be easier in the future to add lenses than adding another body - so my focus was the best body i could buy with a "decent" lens.

I also knew that whatever body I would buy - that in the art of phtography, I have much to learn - in regards to all the elements of composing, lighting the picture as well as the physical techniques that would be required. While the above are also affected by the lens...I found it is affected more by the body...(one cannot shoot at 1/8000 sec if you have a rebel no matter how much you try!)

so I got an excellent lens (tamron 28-75 f2.8) and started learning. from there I added lenses and the majority of my lust list is lenses now. But now I have a base to wait and get the lenses that I want - even if i have to save for 1 year or more.

however, my list is starting to get shorter and shorter and my demands are starting to be answered more by different bodies (i wanted cleaner ISOs and find that while nice to have 8fps, it isn't a deal breaker for me) and lighting options - from no flash unit, to off camera cord, to mutiple flash units...

anyway, that is my 2 cents from a strict hobbiest who spends less time in photography than he would like because of work and family....

i enjoy photography very much...and I think that the best advice from his thread for someone who is starting out or planning a future upgrade is: know what you need/lack. and it really does depend! :)


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Dec 20, 2012 02:13 |  #102
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Every piece of photographic equipment is a compromise to one degree or another. Yes, even that piece you think is perfect; it is a compromise. I have what I have because it is the best equipment I can afford. I would love to have a two 1Dx bodies and a closet full of L-primes, plus the 24-70 II, the 70-200 II, and the 200-400 1.4X. I can't afford that kit. And it is not commensurate with my mediocre talents. And every piece of THAT kit is still a compromise, somewhere. Why can't the 1Dx be 25 fps? Why can't the 800mm be f/2? Because what they are is compilation of compromises.

Glass will usually allow you to do something you can't currently do. That is the advantage. You will never get 135L bokeh with a 70-300 IS USM. Upgrading a body provides access to bells and whistles. Want 8 fps? Not gonna happen with a Rebel. Nobody could tell the difference between two identical shots taken with the T2i and the 7D, or the 5D and the 1DX. There just isn't that much difference between the bodies. Bells & Whistles are what bodies do.

Buy what you need, and can afford, to do what you want to do.


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Dec 20, 2012 02:17 |  #103
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marsaz wrote in post #15388451 (external link)
Also spending huge pile of money to upgrade from 70-200 f4 to 70-200 2.8 is II is not the best example of a lens upgrade.

It IS the very best example of an upgrade if you need 70-200, f/2.8, IS, and can afford the lens. The 70-200 f/4 is NONE of that except 70-200. If you need it, it is most definitely an upgrade. A really good one.


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Dec 20, 2012 02:59 |  #104

TSchrief wrote in post #15388478 (external link)
It IS the very best example of an upgrade if you need 70-200, f/2.8, IS, and can afford the lens. The 70-200 f/4 is NONE of that except 70-200. If you need it, it is most definitely an upgrade. A really good one.

In that example i was replying to it's not that big of an upgrade. IS doesn't do much when you shoot sports and then the only real difference is aperture. In that particular case 5D mk3 will make up for lack of wider aperture with its superior high ISO performance.

What about sharpness. Is 70-200 f2.8 wide open just as sharp as the f4 version?


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Dec 20, 2012 03:16 |  #105
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marsaz wrote in post #15388512 (external link)
In that example i was replying to it's not that big of an upgrade. IS doesn't do much when you shoot sports and then the only real difference is aperture. In that particular case 5D mk3 will make up for lack of wider aperture with its superior high ISO performance.

What about sharpness. Is 70-200 f2.8 wide open just as sharp as the f4 version?

I agree with you, for the example given, it is not much of an upgrade. My example was the same upgrade path for someone who does need those features. As far as comparing the 70-200 f/4 to the f/2.8, both non-IS versions, I have no idea. I've never owned either one of them.


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