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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Transportation Talk 
Thread started 21 Apr 2008 (Monday) 10:35
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Official Automotive Rigs - DIY Thread

 
jjphoto
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Jan 31, 2013 19:00 |  #8716

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
100% disagree.

What a shock! Lucky I was sitting down when I read that...

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...Avenger F1000: made for FLAT surfaces only
Woods: made for curved surfaces...

The Woods 6" is made from softer and more pliable rubber and this is a point of difference between the Avenger and Woods. I always preferred the stiffer Avenger on glass, windscreens etc because it was stiffer and flexed less than the Woods. Even then I would use the Woods, some times the 4.5" version, where the glass was curved.

Avenger and 4.5" Woods:

IMAGE: http://photocornucopia.com/images/Rig%20Shots/r_146_pc_400.jpg

6" and 4.5" Woods:
IMAGE: http://photocornucopia.com/images/Rig%20Shots/r_124_pc_400.jpg

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...Avenger F1000: holds 4.41 lbs
Woods: holds 71 lbs.

I'm not sure this is as telling as you wish it to be and it might be saying more about the companies (and how they test or rate them) than the cups themselves. As the cups are the same physical size and very similar construction, using almost the same pumps, how can one be 16 times stronger than the other? Not 2 or 3 times, but 16 times stronger! Maybe the laws of physics are different in Italy compared to the US. Having used both Avenger and Woods since approx 2003 I would suggest they have a similar holding power given the same clean flat surface to grip but I am not qualified to comment so this is clearly only an opinion.

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...
Avenger F1000: pump is known to fail
Woods: never heard of a single failure, ever...

All cups can fail for various reasons as they all work the exact same way. All manufacturers will tell you NOT to trust the cups explicitly and to check/re-pump regularly. I've had quite a few Woods cups fail for various reasons over the last 10 years, but no more than the Avenger. The pump inside them looks almost identical so it's crazy to claim that one is significantly different or better than the other. The stiffer rubber of the Avenger makes it unsuitable for some uses so I would expect it to loose vacuum more often if used the wrong way. But that's user stupidity rather than a fault of the product. I always carried both types of cups and used the one best suited to the task.

The Woods is more flexible so not as good as the Avenger for single cups use such as below.

IMAGE: http://photocornucopia.com/images/Rig%20Shots/r_102_pc_400.jpg

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...Avenger F1000: swivel is made into the cup
Woods: swivel is detachable so you can add an extension...

Rubbish. The Swivel in the Avenger is bolted in and can be removed. I've done it many times and installed my own 3/8th or 1" shafts as required.

IMAGE: http://photocornucopia.com/images/Rig%20Shots/r_145_pc_400.jpg

IMAGE: http://photocornucopia.com/images/Rig%20Shots/r_040_pc_400.jpg

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...
The fact of the matter is that the Manfrotto is conusmer-grade, and the Woods is film-industry-grade, and that is all the difference in the world...

Rubbish. How is it a "fact"? I Googled the term "film-industry-grade" and got nothing. You're just making that up. Avenger is the 'high end' of Manfrotto and they use the same cups as Manfrotto, just with a different name. Woods is NOT a film/photography supplier but a materials handling company, and a very good one. I don't think that they make "film-industry-grade" (whatever that is) equipment any more than Manfrotto/Avenger do.

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
...Moral of the story is, the Manfrotto will work, but is far from optimal for rig-shots. I have seen many get away with using the Manfrotto because they were using a super light (and inadequate) boom, but once you use a pro-grade boom (unless you break the bank on carbon fiber), the odds are massively for you having an issue. To me, this is worth the difference in price, so I use only Woods cups on my rig-shots.

I think the moral of the story is that people should seek unbiased opinions, and I'm not selling anything either.

By the way, I do prefer the Woods over all bacause of it's fexibility (which can also work against it as mentioned previously) so I think it holds better on curved surfaces so is possibly safer on cars which are almost entirely curved. However the sweeping comment that it is significantly better and that "many get away with using the Manfrotto" is, well, rubbish.


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john ­ owen
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Feb 01, 2013 01:56 as a reply to  @ jjphoto's post |  #8717

@jjPhoto, love that 4 cup set up with the smaller cups to front - wouldn't want to retouch it it out though ;-)a

The short bar you have bridging between the cups with the cuppler for the rig - is that something you have made or is a stock part?

Double cup set up at the back of the rig is a beautiful thing to me


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jjphoto
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Feb 01, 2013 06:01 |  #8718

john owen wrote in post #15558915 (external link)
@jjPhoto, love that 4 cup set up with the smaller cups to front - wouldn't want to retouch it it out though ;-)a

The short bar you have bridging between the cups with the cuppler for the rig - is that something you have made or is a stock part?

Double cup set up at the back of the rig is a beautiful thing to me

Thanks. I've made a lot of stuff over the years, including the bits you've described.

Using 2 cups at the far end of a boom is much safer. That way there is an element of redundancy if one does let go.


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VisualEchos
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Feb 01, 2013 09:57 |  #8719

jjphoto wrote in post #15557745 (external link)
What a shock! Lucky I was sitting down when I read that...

I honestly have better things to do that to prove you wrong on every single point you made, but I could, and it's not because I sell rig equipment, it's because I'm about 200 times more OCD about this than you know.

You and I can agree to disagree, but make no mistake, those that use Manfrotto cups will continue to have issues, and those that use Woods will not.


~Andrew from Rig-Pro (external link) Gallery (external link)

  
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photophilth
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Feb 01, 2013 14:33 |  #8720

We should respect each others' difference of opinion here. I know I do. Like was mentioned, they are both good, for different reasons, and some people will find preference with one or the other, or both.

I use avenger, for no particular reason, other than that's all I knew existed when I got into the rig game. I will say, that I keep my cups clean and care for them and with my self built 20ft aluminum rig, my two cups hold just fine. Granted I bite my nails for a few seconds, because I have zero redundancy, but my cups continue to hold.

That's just my experience and I'm not debating anything, just throwing my piece out there. I would very much like to purchase 2 woods cups to aid in securing the rig over the contour of a car's body and add a bit of redundancy to the rig system.




  
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VisualEchos
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Feb 01, 2013 15:09 |  #8721

photophilth wrote in post #15561034 (external link)
We should respect each others' difference of opinion here. I know I do.

I agree. The part where I disagree is the fact that you can find countless stories on the web about the Avenger F1000 failing, I myself have had 3 of the 6 I have purchased fail (over time). However, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single incident of a Woods cup failing.

To me, this speaks volumes, and was enough by itself to turn me away from the Avenger forever.


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KhanhD
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Feb 01, 2013 17:01 |  #8722

How many Avengers are being used by riggers vs Woods, though?


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jp450r
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Feb 01, 2013 19:44 |  #8723

lcrazyaznl wrote in post #15519064 (external link)
Hey guys do you recommend silicon grease my wood grip cups is failing and i replaced the plungers twice. Might have to replace the cup at this point, but have any of you tried some grease inside the cup I know a friend suggested it for the old avengers.

VisualEchos wrote in post #15555480 (external link)
100% disagree.

Avenger F1000: made for FLAT surfaces only
Woods: made for curved surfaces

Avenger F1000: holds 4.41 lbs
Woods: holds 71 lbs

Avenger F1000: pump is known to fail
Woods: never heard of a single failure, ever

Avenger F1000: swivel is made into the cup
Woods: swivel is detachable so you can add an extension

The only negative I have ever seen from a Woods cup is a manufacturing defect that happens sometimes where there is a small slit in the sealing ring, which doesn't allow it to seal. Woods will replace this, end of story.

The fact of the matter is that the Manfrotto is conusmer-grade, and the Woods is film-industry-grade, and that is all the difference in the world.

Moral of the story is, the Manfrotto will work, but is far from optimal for rig-shots. I have seen many get away with using the Manfrotto because they were using a super light (and inadequate) boom, but once you use a pro-grade boom (unless you break the bank on carbon fiber), the odds are massively for you having an issue. To me, this is worth the difference in price, so I use only Woods cups on my rig-shots.

not trying to add to the fire but sounds like the first quote is about a woods cup failing.




  
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VisualEchos
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Feb 01, 2013 22:33 |  #8724

KhanhD wrote in post #15561600 (external link)
How many Avengers are being used by riggers vs Woods, though?

Countless more Avenger's, they have been the standard DIY cup assembly since 2005. However, it doesn't change the facts. Look, rig with what you want, I just always take the side of safety, as no shot is worth risking your gear, or the car you're rigging.

jp450r wrote in post #15562091 (external link)
not trying to add to the fire but sounds like the first quote is about a woods cup failing.

It's probably the sealing ring, as I stated before. But even if it wasn't (and I truly believe it is), you're talking about one out of thousands. This simply isn't so with the Avengers, and if you talk to a lot of riggers (and I can guarantee that I know more than anyone on this board, 5 times over), you will see that many have issues with the Avenger, but keep using them, just keeping a hawk eye on the pump. If you want to do the same, more power to you, but it will be a matter of time before you have issues, as they are simply not up to the task.


~Andrew from Rig-Pro (external link) Gallery (external link)

  
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Fat ­ Buff ­ Guy
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Feb 02, 2013 00:57 |  #8725

Shot these quite awhile back.

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7028/6804756983_3647dfa8b7.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/25720712@N08/6​804756983/  (external link)
ChaseFinalFronjpegt (external link) by slingblade_2004 (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6804757147_6606a94b7d.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/25720712@N08/6​804757147/  (external link)
FWDfinal (external link) by slingblade_2004 (external link), on Flickr

I keep coming back to see cool pictures and read cool info, and why this discussion started good, this S*#t got old real quick. So back to pictures!

Chris-some Canon, some Nikon, some Pentax, lil bit o' everything

  
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VisualEchos
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Feb 02, 2013 09:52 |  #8726

Fat Buff Guy wrote in post #15562931 (external link)
I keep coming back to see cool pictures and read cool info, and why this discussion started good, this S*#t got old real quick. So back to pictures!

It's a message board, get used to it.

That first shot is fantastic.


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Fat ­ Buff ­ Guy
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Feb 02, 2013 11:44 |  #8727

VisualEchos wrote in post #15563743 (external link)
It's a message board, get used to it.

That first shot is fantastic.

lol thanks.

I am well aquainted w/ forums. Just because I am used to it doesn't mean I have to like it :p

You continue to be one of my favorite photogs!


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VisualEchos
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Feb 02, 2013 19:35 |  #8728

Fat Buff Guy wrote in post #15564094 (external link)
lol thanks.

I am well aquainted w/ forums. Just because I am used to it doesn't mean I have to like it :p

You continue to be one of my favorite photogs!

I know, I get tired of it too, probably bored, so I argue more than I should lol.


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Feb 03, 2013 04:32 as a reply to  @ VisualEchos's post |  #8729

Rig-pro-ing at my favorite shoot location:

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8335/8441002866_c44328f69c_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …hadefotoworks/8​441002866/  (external link)
BMW 320i (external link) by Shade Fotoworks Automotive Photography (external link), on Flickr

Shade Fotoworks Automotive Photography | www.shadefotoworks.com (external link)
Sony a7R
Vario-Tessar T* FE 24-70mm f/4 ZA OSS
Sonnar T* FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Carl Zeiss

  
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VisualEchos
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Feb 03, 2013 14:09 |  #8730

I wish I had some of those ultra bright cars around here!


~Andrew from Rig-Pro (external link) Gallery (external link)

  
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