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Thread started 10 Feb 2013 (Sunday) 16:55
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Why does FF yield shallower DOF?

 
rrblint
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Feb 11, 2013 11:33 |  #46

davidc502 wrote in post #15598192 (external link)
I don't know about the above statement......... so that means the 10D, 20D, 50D, 60D, 7D are point and shoots? Come on.... Lest not forget the APS-H 1D series bodies are crop as well, so I guess we can throw them into the point and shoot group too?

A implies B does not necessarily include B implies A..."P&S is a Crop" does NOT imply "crop is a P&S".


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Feb 11, 2013 11:37 |  #47

rrblint wrote in post #15598213 (external link)
A implies B does not necessarily include B implies A..."P&S is a Crop" does NOT imply "crop is a P&S".

It's been a few years since taking Finite mathematics, but I get what you are driving to. LOL :)


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Feb 11, 2013 11:47 |  #48

Popular convention says that 24 x 36mm is what we call a "Full Frame" sensor. Everything else is either "Large Format Camera" or a "Cropped Camera".


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Feb 11, 2013 12:27 as a reply to  @ msowsun's post |  #49

part of the problem is that you can't really compare FF and APS-c cameras well.

If you are to compare as close to the same as possible you would need to have:

same lens, same distance to subject (which gives you different framing), same pixel density (because of "circle of confusion issues), same aperture, etc.

Often what happens is that the FF crowd does the "to get the same framing you have to be close or use a longer lens... thing which makes major changes to the equation.

So, with as much the same as possible i.e. same lens, aperture, pixel density(pixel density, not total MP) distance to subject blah blah blah. And therefore a cropped image from the FF camera to get the framing the same. The DOF would be identical as DOF is a characteristic of the lens, not the sensor.


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Feb 11, 2013 12:36 |  #50

Copidosoma wrote in post #15598402 (external link)
part of the problem is that you can't really compare FF and APS-c cameras well.

If you are to compare as close to the same as possible you would need to have:

same lens, same distance to subject (which gives you different framing), same pixel density (because of "circle of confusion issues), same aperture, etc.

Often what happens is that the FF crowd does the "to get the same framing you have to be close or use a longer lens... thing which makes major changes to the equation.

So, with as much the same as possible i.e. same lens, aperture, pixel density(pixel density, not total MP) distance to subject blah blah blah. And therefore a cropped image from the FF camera to get the framing the same. The DOF would be identical as DOF is a characteristic of the lens, not the sensor.

Depth of field comparison between formats always assumes the same perspective, which means identical distance to subject and implies a change of focal length/FoV to maintain that. It does not - and cannot - mean using the same lens.

Your final sentence is wrong. Assuming same aperture and subject distance, DoF is a characteristic of both focal length and format size - format size because you have to take into account final image size, which with viewing distance also has to be a constant.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a statement of fact.




  
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Feb 11, 2013 12:39 |  #51

Copidosoma wrote in post #15598402 (external link)
The DOF would be identical as DOF is a characteristic of the lens, not the sensor.

Final enlargement and viewing distance are factors in calculating the DoF, and the size of the sensor determines the amount of enlargement necessary for a given image size.


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Feb 11, 2013 12:44 |  #52

krb wrote in post #15598459 (external link)
Final enlargement and viewing distance are factors in calculating the DoF, and the size of the sensor determines the amount of enlargement necessary for a given image size.

But if everything else is the same and you are cropping the FF image to the dimensions of the "crop" sensor to maintain the same framing the amount of enlargement is the same.

If you don't want to make this assumption (cropping the FF image rather than having different framing or moving closer etc) then you can't and shouldn't really compare the two formats (apples and oranges thing).


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Feb 11, 2013 12:47 as a reply to  @ Copidosoma's post |  #53

But if everything else is the same and you are cropping the FF image to the dimensions of the "crop" sensor to maintain the same framing the amount of enlargement is the same.

That only goes in one direction.




  
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Copidosoma
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Feb 11, 2013 12:48 |  #54

JohnB57 wrote in post #15598444 (external link)
Depth of field comparison between formats always assumes the same perspective, which means identical distance to subject and implies a change of focal length/FoV to maintain that. It does not - and cannot - mean using the same lens.

Your final sentence is wrong. Assuming same aperture and subject distance, DoF is a characteristic of both focal length and format size - format size because you have to take into account final image size, which with viewing distance also has to be a constant.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a statement of fact.

Actually, if you have the same pixel density (theoretical at this point because such cameras don't exist right now) then you actually can use the same lens. As a crop of the FF image would give you the same image as the crop sensor.

Problem is that this discussion has so many assumptions built into it that you just can't really make a simple and fair comparison.

So, it comes down to "how long is a string?"


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Feb 11, 2013 12:51 |  #55

JohnB57 wrote in post #15598444 (external link)
Depth of field comparison between formats always assumes the same perspective, which means identical distance to subject and implies a change of focal length/FoV to maintain that. It does not - and cannot - mean using the same lens.

Your final sentence is wrong. Assuming same aperture and subject distance, DoF is a characteristic of both focal length and format size - format size because you have to take into account final image size, which with viewing distance also has to be a constant.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a statement of fact.

Is it not an opinion?

Let's say an image is a result of many variables like sensor, focal lenght, aperture, distance, etc.

DOF is one part of the result and if you just change the sensor you do get a different result but not a different DOF. The bigger sensor allows you to change other variables like longer focal lenght or close distance - variables that change DOF.

If you keep the same framing on FF as you had on the crop sensor then YES, DOF will be more shallow but it's not the sensor that changes it. It got shallower because you changed other things. So technically speaking sensor alone does not change DOF but it allows you to change other variables that go in to the picture to extract a shallower depth of field than a smaller sensor allows you to.


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Feb 11, 2013 12:53 |  #56

Copidosoma wrote in post #15598489 (external link)
Actually, if you have the same pixel density (theoretical at this point because such cameras don't exist right now) then you actually can use the same lens. As a crop of the FF image would give you the same image as the crop sensor.

Problem is that this discussion has so many assumptions built into it that you just can't really make a simple and fair comparison.

So, it comes down to "how long is a string?"

There are loads of ways of manipulating comparisons to give the desired result. It makes the results invalid and pointless however.

DoF is not affected by pixel density but in any case, we do have FF and crop bodies with similar pixels per unit area.




  
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Feb 11, 2013 13:07 |  #57

Copidosoma wrote in post #15598480 (external link)
But if everything else is the same and you are cropping the FF image to the dimensions of the "crop" sensor to maintain the same framing the amount of enlargement is the same.

The enlargement is the same because you are effectively changing the size of the sensor by cropping. The fact that you have to do this in order to make them be the same is proof that sensor size does have an impact on DoF.


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Feb 11, 2013 13:12 |  #58

Copidosoma wrote in post #15598402 (external link)
part of the problem is that you can't really compare FF and APS-c cameras well.

If you are to compare as close to the same as possible you would need to have:

same lens, same distance to subject (which gives you different framing), same pixel density (because of "circle of confusion issues), same aperture, etc.

Often what happens is that the FF crowd does the "to get the same framing you have to be close or use a longer lens... thing which makes major changes to the equation.

So, with as much the same as possible i.e. same lens, aperture, pixel density(pixel density, not total MP) distance to subject blah blah blah. And therefore a cropped image from the FF camera to get the framing the same. The DOF would be identical as DOF is a characteristic of the lens, not the sensor.

It's not a matter of "the full frame crowd", it works the same way for everybody.

Of course, if you keep all the variables the same (including viewing a smaller print from a crop camera to keep enlargement the same) then the DOF will stay the same. Nobody that I have seen is disagreeing with that. What people are disagreeing with is the fact that that is the situation in the real world.

In the real world, photographers are going to stand where they need to, and use the focal length they need, according to the FoV that their camera gives them. Have you ever worked out the position that gives you the perspective you want, and the focal length that gives you the framing you want, for your camera, then thought "hmmm, if I was using a camera with a different FoV I would be standing over there, or using a different focal length, so I'll do that instead"? People just don't work that way. You compose your shot by standing where you need to be for your perspective, and choose the focal length to fill the frame with your subject, without a load of wasted space around the edge.

To get the same composition and perspective you have to change the variables. It is true that a FF sensor does not in itself give you shallower D0F, but the need to use a longer lens from the same position (or move closer with the same lens, but that alters the image) will reduce the DOF. Therefore, to capture the image you want, the FF camera will have shallower DoF than a crop camera.

It is correct to say that a FF sensor does not alter DoF. However, it is not correct to say that "using a FF camera, or a crop camera" does not alter DoF, because you have to use them differently, and that difference alters your DoF.




  
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Feb 11, 2013 13:20 |  #59

Pixel density has nothing to do with DOF. Also there is no reason to assume we have to use the same lens on each camera when making comparisons. Why would we need the same lens?

I can take the "same" picture from a tripod using the built in lens on a compact at 9mm, or with a 30mm lens on 1.6X, or with a 25mm lens on 4:3rds, or with a S0mm lens on FF. These can all be compared and will deliver the same image with one major difference. If I use the same aperture for all shots the bigger the format the less DOF I will get.

Too many people are placing unwarranted "same lens" restrictions while ignoring the point of trying to take the same shots from different formats.


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Feb 11, 2013 13:22 |  #60

davidc502 wrote in post #15598192 (external link)
I don't know about the above statement......... so that means the 10D, 20D, 50D, 60D, 7D are point and shoots? Come on.... Lest not forget the APS-H 1D series bodies are crop as well, so I guess we can throw them into the point and shoot group too?

No A => B (A implies B) is not same as B => A (B implies A)

He didn't said A and B were equivalent.


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