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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 20 Feb 2013 (Wednesday) 17:47
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doidinho
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Feb 20, 2013 20:45 |  #16

Invertalon wrote in post #15633915 (external link)
Not exactly... If you use a wide lens, such as 14mm or 17mm, even at f/2.8 you will have a great amount of DOF. It just depends on a few factors. I did plenty of landscape type stuff with my Samyang at f/2.8 that looked great. Sure, stop it down to f/4 or f/5.6 and it got sharper, but it depends on what your after.

Correct, not all the time, which is why I chose to use the word "typically". I did elaborate a bit more in post 8 on the other factors involved (which goes way beyond just focal length).

I originally thought that going into to much detail about the other factors would further confuse things for the op which is while I chose to keep things simple and just focus on correcting the misinformation in your post.

Specifically, your suggestion to "Use the largest aperture (smallest f-number) you can with your lens... Need all the light you can get in poor conditions".


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FEChariot
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Feb 20, 2013 21:24 as a reply to  @ doidinho's post |  #17

Use the aperture you need to get the desired depth of field. If that means you have to use a shutterspeed too slow to hand hold, use a tripod.


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Invertalon
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Feb 20, 2013 22:36 |  #18

FEChariot wrote in post #15634156 (external link)
Use the aperture you need to get the desired depth of field. If that means you have to use a shutterspeed too slow to hand hold, use a tripod.

This.

There are plenty of resources available for those learning to understand how shutter/aperture/ISO control the exposure. I would recommend looking into them to understand what you will need for what effect you are after.

Too complex to really put "in a nutshell" for easy shooting. This is what makes photography so fun, to learn all this stuff. It takes time though, at the beginning. Sorry for being harsh before... I would just try to google understanding camera exposure and depth of field and any other key terms. You will get plenty of reading material!


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mnphotos
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Feb 21, 2013 06:04 |  #19

DreDaze wrote in post #15633711 (external link)
buy 'understanding exposure' by bryan peterson

+1

Then buy a tripod.




  
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dpds68
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Feb 21, 2013 07:55 |  #20

Some good advice given here , hey it's not that dark here I usually start at f 8-16 and adjust as needed and yes use a Pod .

David


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SVT ­ Wylde
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Feb 21, 2013 10:15 |  #21

I thought anything over F11 with a crop body was frowned upon due to diffraction issues.


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doidinho
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Feb 21, 2013 10:39 |  #22

SVT Wylde wrote in post #15635788 (external link)
I thought anything over F11 with a crop body was frowned upon due to diffraction issues.

Not just on a crop body, its a lens issue, not a body issue.

Your correct that diffraction reduces iq when a lens is stopped down past its sweet spot and that a lot of lenses have their sweet spot around f/11.

However, if you need more DOF than f/11 provides then your options are to stop down or take the shot at f/11 knowing that the entire scene will not be in focus.

Generally speaking you wouldn't want to stop down past your lenses sweet spot without a reason if your going for the highest IQ.


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Feb 21, 2013 11:21 |  #23

doidinho wrote in post #15635877 (external link)
Not just on a crop body, its a lens issue, not a body issue.
.

To be precise, it indeed is related to the size of the frame in the camera, but choosing camera A vs. camera B (both of same format size) will NOT matter! And, it is not a 'lens issue' in the sense that choosing lens A vs. lens B will make any difference in the amount of diffraction which is present! Randomly choose any two lenses and at f/22 the diffraction effects are identical. It is a 'lens aperture issue'.

Take the identical lens (ignoring the sweet spot aperture which is likely to be around f/5.6) and (assuming its image circle is large enough to cover a very large frame...)

  • with APS-C body you can use f/11 before you begin to see diffraction,
  • with FF body you can use f/16 before you begin to see diffraction,
  • with medium format you can use f/22 before you begin to see diffraction, and
  • with 4x5" sheetfilm you can get to about f/45 or even f/64 before you begin to see diffraction!


This is simply because the large image needs to be magnified by a lesser amount, so the diffraction effects are magnified less, too! The diffraction that is captured on film/sensor is IDENTICAL for all formats, the smaller formats have to be magnified more, so diffraction is seen sooner.

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doidinho
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Feb 21, 2013 11:58 |  #24

Wilt wrote in post #15636026 (external link)
To be precise, it indeed is related to the size of the frame in the camera, but choosing camera A vs. camera B (both of same format size) will NOT matter! And, it is not a 'lens issue' in the sense that choosing lens A vs. lens B will make any difference in the amount of diffraction which is present! Randomly choose any two lenses and at f/22 the diffraction effects are identical. It is a 'lens aperture issue'.


Take the identical lens (ignoring the sweet spot aperture which is likely to be around f/5.6) and (assuming its image circle is large enough to cover a very large frame...)
  • with APS-C body you can use f/11 before you begin to see diffraction,
  • with FF body you can use f/16 before you begin to see diffraction,
  • with medium format you can use f/22 before you begin to see diffraction, and
  • with 4x5" sheetfilm you can get to about f/45 or even f/64 before you begin to see diffraction!

This is simply because the large image needs to be magnified by a lesser amount, so the diffraction effects are magnified less, too! The diffraction that is captured on film/sensor is IDENTICAL for all formats, the smaller formats have to be magnified more, so diffraction is seen sooner.

But since the sweet spot of a lens varries depending on the lens (could be 2.8, could be 11), and the number of stops it can varry is 5 or more (depending on the lens and the max apeture of the lens), and according to your post the sensor size (between crop and FF) only affected things by one stop, I still say that it is more of a lens issue than a body issue.

Sensor size may affect things a little bit, but lense selection will generally have much more of an affect on what apeture you begin to experince increased diffraction.


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Feb 21, 2013 12:43 |  #25

doidinho wrote in post #15636167 (external link)
But since the sweet spot of a lens varries depending on the lens (could be 2.8, could be 11), and the number of stops it can varry is 5 or more (depending on the lens and the max apeture of the lens), and according to your post the sensor size (between crop and FF) only affected things by one stop, I still say that it is more of a lens issue than a body issue.

Sensor size may affect things a little bit, but lense selection will generally have much more of an affect on what apeture you begin to experince increased diffraction.

Diffraction is totally a function of the aperture diameter!
The interaction of MTF detail resolution (which considers contrast) and the degradation due to diffraction may result in worse total IQ in one lens than another, but that is entirely due to the MTF value being lower in one lens vs. the other. The diffraction effect at f/22 would be identical for both, and only because MTF is lower in one is the resultant IQ lowered in that lens. Expressing these relationships figuratively...

IQ = MTF rating * effects of diffraction

where effect of diffraction small aperture diameter, and MTF rating = detail resolution * contrast
and diffraction resolving power R = 1800/N (a literal scientific expression of the relationship!), where N is f/number


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SVT ­ Wylde
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Feb 21, 2013 12:45 |  #26

I was taking some sunburst shots with my 60D/15-85mm combo at f/22. Shortly afterwards, I took a few landscape shots at f/22 and the results were less than stellar. f/11 is about as far as I can push it and get a nice sharp image.


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doidinho
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Feb 21, 2013 12:58 |  #27

SVT Wylde wrote in post #15636345 (external link)
I was taking some sunburst shots with my 60D/15-85mm combo at f/22. Shortly afterwards, I took a few landscape shots at f/22 and the results were less than stellar. f/11 is about as far as I can push it and get a nice sharp image.

Out of curiosity, what lens were you using?

Nm, I see you posted that.


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ZIM ­ SOGEN
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Feb 22, 2013 12:32 |  #28
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I dont have a camera yet, I am just learning all that I can right now while I manage my money to save for the Canon T4i, and the Canon 24-105mm f/4 and Sigma 10-20 lens, I dont know which sigma 10-20mm I will buy yet, a guy on another forum told me new version of sigma lenses in his experience dont have any huge performance increase.
I looked again at reviews of both sigma 10-20mm lenses and thats confirmed, I dont like the un even distortion of the sigma 10-20mm f/3.5 on the wide end, so I have a lot of time to decide which lens.

I know for sure I want the Canon EF 24-105mm lens as a general purpose zoom, the only bad this is that the wide end on the lens for crop frame is not as wide as i want it but its wide enough.

Looking at pictures and distortion comparisons of the EF S 15-85mm lens and the EF 24-105mm I decided I dont like the distortion and that the 24-105 is good enough for me, it has low distortion on a crop frame,sharp images(maybe not as sharp as the efs 15-85) and great mechanical quality.


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ZIM ­ SOGEN
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Feb 22, 2013 12:34 |  #29
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Using compact cameras and smart phone cameras gives me a good enough idea of using digital cameras, and yes I know a DSLR is way different than a compact and of course a smart phone in which the camera is only an accessory.

How ever it should not be hard to learn especially if its the Canon T4i I plan to buy!


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ZIM ­ SOGEN
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Feb 22, 2013 12:37 |  #30
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doidinho I just realised its not me you were asking that question, though now I gave you all an idea of what I am buying and why!


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