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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 21 Mar 2013 (Thursday) 11:17
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Will Canon Semi Pro Cameras Crash in Price in 2013

 
sandpiper
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Mar 21, 2013 15:01 |  #16

Submariner wrote in post #15740260 (external link)
Sorry not my understanding of the situation. Canon UK will not honour the warranty of a grey import from HDEW.
They will allow you or HDEW or their insurance underwriters to pay for the work and will carry out the repair. BUT ONLY if the serial number is valid. So if it were a fake job like Digital Rev. Then you cant get the item repaired at the only 2 UK service centres geared up to repair the 5D3!
Likewise Canon UK will not replace the unit if it was terrible, like say they may choose to do if it were UK approved dealer supplied.
The other issue is will HDEW guarantee to allow you to have it repaired in a Canon UK repair centre. I asked for this in writing and they refused and suggested I buy elsewhere!
Basically if you want to put all these cuddly warm fuzzy promises in writing they wont!

Thats why I am not impressed - likewise not overly impressed by someone, who says, well I bought 3x 1Dx and have had no trouble!
What would impress me is someone who had a problem and the unit was replaced quickly by a supplier with them paying for the collection. Or getting it repaired at the official Canon authorised "BY CAMERA" centre in a timely manner.
What I have seen in a number of posts is that some of these companies (not HDEW BTW ) try and force you to pay for the postage back to HK or China, always really expensive. Plus very risky.

Submariner wrote in post #15740271 (external link)
This is not true and I had it confirmed by canon UK! They will only honour warranty for goods supplied by official,Canon dealers.
Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the Canon employees name and a Canon UK email address for them. That you will never see!


As I say, I have not had to have my 5D3 serviced so I am not speaking from personal experience. I am simply referencing that I have seen many posters on here state that their camera from HDEW was accepted by Canon UK for warranty work and others who have, apparently, been told that Canon UK will perform warranty work on cameras supplied from any UK dealer, regardless of origin, so long as you have the UK receipt.

I am quite happy to accept that this is likely dependent on who deals with the case at the time. There have always been inconsistencies between "official policy" and what Canon actually do, they often go outside the official guidelines for a number of reasons. I have seen a number of instances in forums where one person had work done under warranty, where the same issue was charged for with somebody else. It depends who makes the decision at the time.

From what I have read, it seems that in general those sending HDEW supplied bodies to Canon have had them accepted under warranty. Frankly, I am not concerned particularly whether they are or not. As I stated above, I see my warranty as being the HDEW one and have no problem sending it to them, for them to forward to Canon and pay for the work to be done, instead of me sending it to Canon under warranty. Either way I get the work done, at a Canon service centre, at no cost to me.

It is possible, I suppose, that HDEW have an arrangement with Canon, whereby if anybody sends in a Canon body (with an HDEW receipt andf under the warranty period) that Canon simply fix it and forward the bill to HDEW.

On none of the occasions I have seen, where somebody has posted that they got warranty work done directly with Canon, on an HDEW supplied body, has anybody come back with a post to say that they tried and were turned away.




  
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Submariner
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Mar 21, 2013 15:06 |  #17

Lowner wrote in post #15740311 (external link)
Submariner,

So Canon have manufactured a camera, sold it to an "unofficial" third party and pocketed a profit, yet refuse to honour the warranty? If it happened to me I'd be seeing them in court!

I don't see that its any business of Canons where in the world I experience problems, I expect the same warranty cover worldwide as a customer.

I totally agree with you!
A camera is like a portable product. Eg guy buys £15000 gear in London - goes on holiday and one camera breaks! Er no warranty in the US!
A better way is to have transparent pricing like Rolex , based on last years average currency conversions, and international warranty, with " hidden" cross charging.
Then there is no need for the grey market!

As for seeing them in court I think you would lose, as your claim would be against the selling dealer - Canon is 3rd Part removed from the contract. Good luck with the likes of Digital Rev! LoL.

Personally I think if you had a beef with these guys, the best way would be to threaten them with a customs and excise raid. Those guys are like the Gestapo, and have more powers to enter ones property than the police!
I'm amazed Customs haven't gone for these guys yet. Oh yeah thats why I would never pay by bank transfer (some offer a few points off).
Customs would raid the place and the homes of all directors and employees, seizing what they could ( er your nice newly paid for, but sadly not yet shipped 1Dx!
A full on Customs investigation just needs that sales ledger and they could spit out final demands for both the dealer and if not recovered, you the buyer.
Generally in these cases the Dealer evaporates customs seize any assets they can ( like your 1Dx!) and I think one needs the protection of barclaycard!


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Mar 21, 2013 15:11 |  #18

Lowner wrote in post #15740311 (external link)
Submariner,

So Canon have manufactured a camera, sold it to an "unofficial" third party and pocketed a profit, yet refuse to honour the warranty? If it happened to me I'd be seeing them in court!

I don't see that its any business of Canons where in the world I experience problems, I expect the same warranty cover worldwide as a customer.


Like I say, "Canon" (the global corporation) will provide warranty, however, Canon UK (the UK importers) are quite within their rights to refuse to honour a warranty on a camera from another source. THEY haven't pocketed the profits as they didn't supply the goods, you are still covered by warranty, but that warranty is with the importers who originally supplied the camera (Canon US, Canon HK etc) and Canon UK are well within their rights to wash their hands of it and tell you to send it back where you got it. They don't always do that, but it depends on the goodwill of the person behind the counter when your camera arrives.

They may well provide warranty cover as goodwill, but are well within their rights to refuse.




  
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Mar 21, 2013 15:19 |  #19

sandpiper wrote in post #15740392 (external link)
As I say, I have not had to have my 5D3 serviced so I am not speaking from personal experience. I am simply referencing that I have seen many posters on here state that their camera from HDEW was accepted by Canon UK for warranty work and others who have, apparently, been told that Canon UK will perform warranty work on cameras supplied from any UK dealer, regardless of origin, so long as you have the UK receipt.

I am quite happy to accept that this is likely dependent on who deals with the case at the time. There have always been inconsistencies between "official policy" and what Canon actually do, they often go outside the official guidelines for a number of reasons. I have seen a number of instances in forums where one person had work done under warranty, where the same issue was charged for with somebody else. It depends who makes the decision at the time.

From what I have read, it seems that in general those sending HDEW supplied bodies to Canon have had them accepted under warranty. Frankly, I am not concerned particularly whether they are or not. As I stated above, I see my warranty as being the HDEW one and have no problem sending it to them, for them to forward to Canon and pay for the work to be done, instead of me sending it to Canon under warranty. Either way I get the work done, at a Canon service centre, at no cost to me.

It is possible, I suppose, that HDEW have an arrangement with Canon, whereby if anybody sends in a Canon body (with an HDEW receipt andf under the warranty period) that Canon simply fix it and forward the bill to HDEW.

On none of the occasions I have seen, where somebody has posted that they got warranty work done directly with Canon, on an HDEW supplied body, has anybody come back with a post to say that they tried and were turned away.

I actually think what you said is true, namely that Hdew take your goods and have the decency ( and long term good business sense ) to send it to Canon UK for repair and then get their insurance warranty company to pay Canon.
All very sensible and probably why hDEw is slightly , but only by a couple of pounds more expensive. I.e. they have a proper working warranty!

Also I don't think they have so many if any fake serial numbers. So the stuff can go to Canon UK repairers.

So the risk diminishes as one types. But there is a small risk but quite frankly its so small with them, the huge savings are possibly worth it.
I saw one chap who got a 5D3 for £1800! Thats probably going to be the Opening price for the new 7D2! Well I would probably take the risk in that case and then check my serial number to the Exif file. And demand a new one if they differed.

O


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Mar 21, 2013 15:30 |  #20

BigAl007 wrote in post #15739913 (external link)
What you have to remember is that under UK consumer law your rights to warranty and anything else to do with retail purchases lies with the Retailer. You have no contractual obligation with the manufacturer/importer. In the event of a problem with anything your first port of call should always be the retailer, even if the manufacturer offers an additional warranty over and above your "statutory rights". You should always go through the retailer first, as if you do not it will probably affect your "statutory rights" adversely. Generally authorised or official retailers will have agreements in place so that the manufacturer or importer will handle all of the warranty work for them, and may even ask you to ship the item to the official repairer directly. On the other hand they may use their own repair centre instead of the "official " service, that is entirely up to the retailer as long as the repair is carried out in a timely manner and sufficient quality.

Another consideration in these uncertain times is that if your retailer goes bust, then so does your warranty. This is where any warranty offer that the manufacturer or importer may offer over and above your rights with the retailer may come into play. As this is a serviced offered over and above your rights as a consumer in the UK they may apply any restrictions on how they wish to operate the offer that they want. So if the item was not supplied through them they quite rightly have the right to refuse to provide any support for that item. I can even understand them refusing to carry out paid for repairs to items that they did not sell. The only exception to this would be where there is an arraignment between official suppliers for international service agreements, if you meet the requirements of such an agreement.

This reminds me somewhat of a thread I was reading earlier concerning a Canon Warranty on a camera that had not come through "official" channels. I do not know how the law stands in the USA with warranties, and who is liable, but if a company did not provide an item, then I cannot see how they can be held liable for that item under normal contract laws which the USA modeled on British ones anyway. I can understand the company dealing with it as a matter of courtesy, it's good PR after all.

Alan

Totally agree with you Alan, other than when the manufacturer encloses, as Canon do on some products, a warranty card with terms and conditions. That always says you need a valid - dated receipt, from an approved Canon distributor or retailer. Thus Jessop's customers are covered.
If there was no leaflet inside the product, you are totally right , argue with the receiver ??(no thanks) or go and beg for corporate goodwill from Canon.


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Mar 21, 2013 15:37 |  #21

OK Guys we have had loads about the grey market, which I feel emotionally obligated to correct when I see someone misquoting or when they are plainly wrong , just so nobody loses their money.

But I'm much more interested in your views on how you think the camera prices are going to be influenced by all these new proposed cameras, imminently due to be released in such a narrow product category.
Please


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Mar 21, 2013 15:39 |  #22

Take a look at the price of the 5D II
2010: $2700
2013: Almost half!
Current used market: horrible for sellers, great for buyers.
That is the natural history of this type of electronics.

IMAGE: http://www.canonpricewatch.com/graph/02699-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-price-graph.png

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Mar 21, 2013 19:43 |  #23

bought 5d3 from HDEW good price, warranty for 3 years with THEM , now I don't care if they send it half way round the world to repair it properly ,so long as its repaired .most other retailers only offer 1 year warranty .did a lot of reading on forums about HDEW and they seem to have a good record where repairs come in. plus also used KERSO who sells lots of canon gear from USA bought several lenses from him and had to send 400mm f5.6 back for autofocus to canon with photocopied receipt fixed and returned within 1 week and not a mention of grey products from canon .




  
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Mar 21, 2013 20:23 |  #24

Submariner wrote in post #15740500 (external link)
Totally agree with you Alan, other than when the manufacturer encloses, as Canon do on some products, a warranty card with terms and conditions. That always says you need a valid - dated receipt, from an approved Canon distributor or retailer. Thus Jessop's customers are covered.
If there was no leaflet inside the product, you are totally right , argue with the receiver ??(no thanks) or go and beg for corporate goodwill from Canon.

Yes the Jessops and Comet customers are covered by the fact that Canon offer additional warranties for officially sourced products, which are in addition to your statutory rights under UK consumer law.

Your other option within the UK to ensure that you are covered is to purchase the item using either credit provided by the retailer, or to use a credit card, as in both situations the contract is three way, and the credit company is also liable. Warranties are also now not limited by time, but must cover goods for a "reasonable" period. If you can routinely find say a 3 year warranty on certain types of goods, or even such extended warranties then you should be able to make a case. This has been the case here now for nearly 20 years, but not that many seem to know about it. I was able to get a computer repaired by a finance company after the retailer went bust, and when the computer was nearly 3 years old, even though the initial warranty was "only" 1 year. You need to know your rights and at times stick up for them, retailers will lie to you all of the time, they even put the "untruths" in their contracts, but usually cover themselves with the old "Your statutory rights are not affected".

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Mar 22, 2013 00:03 |  #25
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Think less about gear. Think more about lighting, framing, composition, exposure, lens choice, DOF, angle of view, pressing the shutter release. Go out and shoot.

My response to your comments about the quality of the 7D. If 90% of them were really mediocre or really bad, it would not sell like it does, still. The truth probably closer to this.

99% of 7Ds manufactured leave the factory within tolerances.
10% of owners actually know how to use them.
50% of owners don't ever realize their own lack of knowledge is causing their problems.
40% of owners should have bought a P&S.

An acquaintance of mine shoots a 7D. Most of the time it is in P-mode. He is happy with his images, but most of them could have been obtained with a P&S. It is his money, he's happy.

Submariner wrote in post #15739662 (external link)
Genuinely interested in your views, why?

I'd like to upgrade to Full Frame. I'm in no rush as I have one of the 'perfect' 7D copies, so currently get great pictures.
(By 'perfect' I mean its MINT, only 9,130 clicks, 8 months old, pampered indoor usage, UK bought so elidgible for Canon service and most importantly it is one that focuses perfectly and accurately. (My personal view is there are 3 types of 7D's a] The perfect ones like this 10%, b] the medicocre 50%, and c] the really bad ones 40%).

I thought of having a IDsMk III sebatical, basically holiday with one of those beautifully built darlings [that have already lost their money] for say 10 months; while 5D3 prices slowly come down, and the 7D crashes opon the release of the 7D MK2. Thus sell the 7D now.
2 Problems;- a] not many 1DsMkIII mint copies in the UK with a history. b] The 7D price has already started to crash. Why?, basically Grey imports and cameras like the 6D and the falling price of the 5D3. add to that the 70D coming soon and the imminent 7D MkII in August.
The retail price on the street is about £1,000 to £1,050. 2nd Hand Dealers like MBP are selling good condition for £700; but little knowledge or no details of the age or the usage on them.
I therefore thought a fair price for a perfect 8 month old one would be say £800 and I throw in a second genuine battery. (any views welcome)
But the Grey importers are selling them for £700 new! Few realise those with dogy serial numbers can not be serviced by Canon; and therefore can't realistically be sold second hand. Unless seller is happy to refund the buyers money as soon as he discoverers he can't get it mended! Plus on day HM Customs may trace them all for VAT due! ( thats another nightmare timebomb). That nightmare will take about 2 years to be proven.

So currently those, and the OK Greys [one's that have the same serial no. on the chassis and the box and the exif files] will bring down the price of a UK 8 month old camera to maybe £700. (any views welcome).

OK thats the background.
Add to that:-
1. a 5D3 price that has dropped from £3000 to £2,100 with cashback or Grey at £1,9902.
2. The 6D £1650 to £1500 or Grey @ £1299
3. A 70D due out soon ?? £900 Grey market £620 i.e. a mid price 60D and 7D ref 60D @ £800 amazon Grey @ £473
4. The new 7D MkII what £1,900 to drop to £1,500 in say 2 months
5. The new street price of the 5D3 because of the above guess £1900 or grey £1700!

OK these are guesses but hell its going to get murderous out there!
Is this a case of two many models?

Personally I'd go HDEW 5D3 at £1,700 rather than a 7DII at £1500! bw!
But waht happens to the price of my poor little 7D [nb there are a lot of them out there??
£700 >>>>£600 to £500. :cry:
NB a very good case for keeping it as a second body or giving it to the wife etc, [Such a shame the 5 D uses a different battery!]
But as I know mine is a GEM, not exactly set on fire to sell it. Maybe many others will say well if I only get £500 tops what extra will the new 7DII do for me???? especially if its a crop! And if its a full frame!!! what will that do to the nameing convention and or the price of the 6D!

Interested in peoples thoughts - on the bright side if they have overcrowded the market then the usual winner is US THE CUSTOMER :cool:


Note an example:-
Take Mercedes at its hayday for reputation, market advantage, reliability and resale value they had a 190, E Class, G Wagen class S class and SL. 5 lines
now add A, B, R, SLK , CLK, SC. ML probalby 7 or 8 = 13 lines.

Submariner wrote in post #15740339 (external link)
Thanks for putting this back on target - but if you see some of the rough pricing maths I put down. It looks to me as though it will go a lot further, if all these new models come out.

Look at the unprecedented amount of stuff on the fact the 6D in certain conditions, looks as though it might have a slightly better low light resolution than the 5D3!
OK its interesting, but only a small part of the 5D3' s benefits.
But we have a lot of people saying, well then it is good enough for me, even with single point AF to save £1000!
Im not criticising them, just pointing out if the 6D has had that effect, the 70D may have some other points and the 7Dmk 2 may be faster, and have a 61 point AF and the reach, and handle higher ISO low-light performance better . All these eat at the 5D3 potential customer base -
So will Canon respond by letting the price of the 5d3 slip down further.

I just thought of another problem, as Canon left the 7D out there for so long, if they continue to sell it against the 7D2. This would decimate the 2nd hand price . But as there are so many - there are bound to be a lot of pristine copies. Maybe a lot of low end camera owners will see this as a chance to move into the semi pro area.
Will that hurt Canon price of lower models ?


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Mar 22, 2013 00:16 |  #26

TSchrief wrote in post #15741956 (external link)
99% of 7Ds manufactured leave the factory within tolerances.
10% of owners actually know how to use them.
50% of owners don't ever realize their own lack of knowledge is causing their problems.
40% of owners should have bought a P&S.

QFT!!


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Mar 22, 2013 00:23 |  #27
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Scrumhalf wrote in post #15741980 (external link)
QFT!!

What does Quantum Field Theory have to do with the 7D?


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Mar 22, 2013 01:25 |  #28

Hahaha... Nice!

That's one topic I didn't have to study. As an electrical engineer, I had to do quantum mech, electrodynamics and solid state physics, but none of the hardcore theoretical physics stuff.


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Mar 22, 2013 03:20 |  #29

tkbslc wrote in post #15739834 (external link)
I think they have already crashed.

This....


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Mar 22, 2013 08:02 |  #30

TSchrief wrote in post #15741956 (external link)
99% of 7Ds manufactured leave the factory within tolerances.
10% of owners actually know how to use them.
50% of owners don't ever realize their own lack of knowledge is causing their problems.
40% of owners should have bought a P&S.

An acquaintance of mine shoots a 7D. Most of the time it is in P-mode. He is happy with his images, but most of them could have been obtained with a P&S. It is his money, he's happy.

I can totally appreciate your perspective on the owners competence Table. You are probably right on that score; as the 7D can be a seriously complex camera and seems to have a lot of the features one sees in the 5d or even 1D series. It has also not got a simple P&S side to it - say as the Sony A 77 has.

Maybe I was also too harsh on my categorisation as originally stated:
a]perfect ones like this 10%,
b] the medicocre 50%, and
c] the really bad ones 40%).

Maybe should be described as :-
a]perfect ones like this 10%,
b] ones with just reasonably accurate AF, but still an excellent build quality in all other aspects 50%, and
c] the ones with extremely inaccurate AF points and poor image quality, but still with a excellent build quality in all other aspects 40%).

Thats what it looks like to me, I would also be open to reducing the 40% of bad AF' copies, and put quite a few of these down to poor knowledge of the camera. But not the ones where you read about someone having 4 copies before it worked and a Canon repair centre agreeing on the repair ticket that it was malfunctioning!
I did see an article that mapped the actual AF areas to the boxes on the VF. It was seriously appalling quality control. Look I shoot for a hobby and have a Leupold M1 LRT Tactical scope. One of their best circa within 1/4 " accurracy at 1700 meters. Well if the cross hair wasn't where the point of impact was; it would be pretty much useless! and that is what I believe the issue is. Poor batch quality control on the AF sensor spoilt an awesome camera. Plus it should be sold as seriously complex PRO level equuipment.
Then it would have been an even bigger success. An Icon!
Honestly I can't fault mine for the money! And one can see why it lasted so long . What does Canon have to do to improve it! Basically give you a crop 5d3! For £1600! Ouch.
Thats why I see a new 7D2 coming out at £1900 to start with.:eek:
And dropping to £1500 inside 2 months.( really due to Nikon D800 pressure)
Hence to the point of my post . An awful lot of people who NEED reach eg birders , aeroplane shooters , wildlife etc. will then go this route rather than the 5D3. This pressure will also increase as Canons view seems to be to put up lens prices. Thus reach achieved by lenses looks like being expensive.
Is this new lens pricing indicative that Canon see bodies being cheaper through electronic Technology advances but lenses going through the roof to compensate them for the lack of profits on bodies.
Then add the chain effect at the bottom, re the 70d pulling sales from the 6D , and that in turn dropping and so pulling sales from the 5D3. My logic being new 7D2 (assuming it's a 5D3 crop version) selling for £1500. If Canon insist on continuing to sell the old 7D in parralel at a discounted price, then the 7D2 will drop to £1400 within 3 months. And the 5D3 will end up selling for £1,700!

If I was Canon, I'd price the 5D3 at £2,100 discounted to £1,800
Have the 6D at £1,600 discounted to £1,300

And have the new 7D mk2 at £1,800 discounted to £1,500
Put the new 70D due out soon ?? £1000 Discounted to £700
leave the 60D @ £700 discounted to £473

Obviously without data to work out the price elasticity of each type of camera this can only be a guess.
My theory is at the bottom end its all price driven - "i'm going to get a camera and I have £500"
"Or Ive got £300 " "fine I'll have that "

But at the mid upper level eg 5D3 and 7D2 land, people will find a little bit more cash to get a lot more. But only within the confines of perceived, market values i.e. they will jump to Nikon if it makes financial sense.
And global recessions will make them tough negotiators, or sidewalk spectators until the price is right.


Canon EOS 5DS R, Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L Mk II IS USM, Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 L IS USM, EF 40mm F2.8 STM , RC6 Remote. Canon STE-3 Radio Flash Controller, Canon 600 EX RT x4 , YN 560 MkII x2 ; Bowens GM500PRO x4 , Bowens Remote Control. Bowens Pulsar TX, RX Radio Transmitter and Reciever Cards. Bowens Constant 530 Streamlights 600w x 4 Sold EOS 5D Mk III, 7D, EF 50mm F1.8, 430 EX Mk II, Bowens GM500Rs x4

  
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