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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 10 Apr 2013 (Wednesday) 07:14
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Better DSLRs - do they attain focus faster?

 
kin2son
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Apr 11, 2013 09:41 |  #46
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whothafunk wrote in post #15815598 (external link)
But truth be told, 6FPS is nowhere near good enough for sports either, so 6D or 5DIII - FPS wise only, are in the same boat.

As I mentioned in the first post, I have learned to catch the right moment in volleyball and football due to lack of FPS on my current 550D, so leaning more towards ISO and image quality performance.

People that tells you there is a noticeable difference in regards to IQ is delusional, as 99% of IQ comes from the lens, not the body (well at least between the 2 in discussion).

ISO difference is again negligible. 1/3 of a stop, big deal...:rolleyes:

I take better AF (which is worlds apart btw) over same IQ & ISO difference :p

Sure 5D3 isn't a full-fledged sports camera like a 1D4 or 1DX, but it's a hell lot better for the task compared to the 6D.

And good job of you ceasing the moment. ;)


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bulldog-yota
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Apr 12, 2013 02:11 |  #47

It seems you want a pro sports setup, but not willing to pay for it. Seems like only a 1Dx or D4 will satisfy your requirements, so better start saving up. At best the 7DII will match a 5DIII at high ISO, but most likely it will still be a stop worse.

I honestly think you need a big reality check, as you want a massive improvement in high ISO, premium AF and 10+FPS by the sounds of it. That is not going to happen in the next release of Canon or Nikon crop bodies, and will likely only be in reach of the pro sports bodies for quite a few years to come.




  
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whothafunk
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Apr 12, 2013 05:16 |  #48

show me 1 (one) post where I stated I want a premium AF (or any AF at all). just one


1DX :: 300mm 2.8L IS USM :: 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II :: 8-15L f4 USM fisheye :: 24-70 2.8L USM :: 1.4x III extender :: Tamron 15-30 f2.8 VC

  
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Apr 12, 2013 05:54 |  #49

whothafunk wrote in post #15818910 (external link)
show me 1 (one) post where I stated I want a premium AF (or any AF at all). just one

I can't understand why if you are as good as you say and have so much paid work, why are you asking us for advice?


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whothafunk
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Apr 12, 2013 06:21 |  #50

Why is that even important? Europe is screwed, everything is a lot more expensive than in USA and other continents, especially in Slovenia - 1DX costs 6500 EUR ($8700), 5D3 3000 EUR ($3900). 1L of gasoline 1.5EUR ($1.96).

I find it funny how you people actually think a student can spew out for a 1DX. I started with a 550D. It has limitations (FPS, ISO, AF), thats why I learned all the sports I shoot and now without needing to rely on FPS, I know when to press the shutter button to get an interesting shot. Also always rely on center FOCUS (NOT AUTO focus) point. And because in my opinion I got good, only thing I cannot improve is ISO.

A few examples (note, that these were downloaded from my Facebook album, so the quality has already been compromised)

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/3A/9d/30z0KPYU/1.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/1x/112/3l7ImP58/2.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/1a/MW/2fgXBw2Z/3.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/22/YK/46NIpIXu/4.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/29/VM/2Ja8F9JG/5.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/2v/XM/4FLIzrz7/6.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/1z/lw/2KHjzKNs/7.jpg

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/2j/Lb/2mJuhU5t/8.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/2o/​Yh/3iCgcRrD/9.jpg (external link)

http://shrani.si/f/1i/​If/3rQjZBKi/10.jpg (external link)

I'm a student which by some coincidence knows how sports should be photographed, I received a lot of praise but by no means I became a legend in our country and get a 500 EUR bonus just for showing up on a event. I am paid, but not that much. I still have to pay for clothes, food, utilities, and various other things. And everything is a lot more expensive than in in US and apparently Australia.

1DX :: 300mm 2.8L IS USM :: 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II :: 8-15L f4 USM fisheye :: 24-70 2.8L USM :: 1.4x III extender :: Tamron 15-30 f2.8 VC

  
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bobbyz
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Apr 12, 2013 08:21 |  #51

Honestly start with 7d. You think AF is no good and even folks using center AF point on 1dx don't know nothing IMHO. Maybe they still used to their older cameras and don't know how to properly use the newer bodies. Get some nice lenses. As newer bodies come in, upgrade over time.

Getting 300mm f2.8 IS will improve your pictures more than getting 6d/5dmk3 etc. For indoors you need f2 lens. If only thing listed in the signature then spend money there first. If you can't get the shot with 7d, move to something else. Honestly.

I know someone who shoots 10000 indoor shots over one weekend and they did this even without new high ISO bodies. Got to know the tools and how to use them. And shooting sports aint no cheap.


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Preeb
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Apr 12, 2013 09:16 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #52

One thing that the OP needs to learn if he wants people to understand him is the terminology. Auto-focus is what ALL of the AF points do. You can select which ones are active in the menu, but if AF it on, any active point will all perform its auto-focus function. Center point only is still auto-focus.

You have two choices for achieving focus - auto-focus or manual focus. With manual focus, the photographer turns the focus ring himself. With auto-focus the internal motor turns focuses the lens controlled by whatever focus point selection the photographer has made.

Auto-focus be activated either with the shutter half press, or by using the custom menu and activating the back button. On the 550d back button focus is not as user friendly, one reason why I upgraded from my 500d to a 60D.

I realize that this is probably elementary for an experienced sprots photographer like the OP, but he is arguing about process when he doesn't appear to understand the terminology.


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kin2son
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Apr 12, 2013 09:24 |  #53
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Preeb wrote in post #15819503 (external link)
Auto-focus is what ALL of the AF points do. You can select which ones are active in the menu, but if AF it on, any active point will all perform its auto-focus function. Center point only is still auto-focus.

Indeed.

OP let me use one of your samples as an example -

IMAGE: http://shrani.si/f/2j/Lb/2mJuhU5t/8.jpg

Now how did you come up with this final image?

Correct me if I'm wrong - I assume you focused on the goalie? And if you used the center point to focus at the time, can I safely assume this is a heavy crop?

Furthermore I can see the goalie's jersey is sharper than his face, so how can a better camera with better AF and more AF points help you to achieve perfect focus on the face of the goalie with less cropping?

First of all, 5D3 have 6 different AF cases to achieve faster and more accurate focus in different sporting scenarios. It also has a total of 61 AF points which you can freely choose.

You then have 6 different AF modes (spot, 5/8 points expansion etc) to aid in achieving a lock.

In your sample, I would have used AF case number 5 (For erratic subjects moving quickly in any direction), using one of the left outer point with 4 points expansion (and no, I won't enable all AF points :p), plant it and continuously tracking the goalie's face, which would have resulted in sharper face and less cropping in the final image.

That's just one example of how I would have done it and can pretty much apply to every single one of your samples.

Can you see what I mean? It's a lot more than just high ISO performance than you think...

5D3 Gripped / 17-40L / Σ35 / 40 Pancake / Zeiss 50 MP / Σ85 / 100L Macro / 70-200 f2.8L II IS / 430 EX II / 580 EX II / Canon 2xIII TC / Kenko Ext. Tubes
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alunh
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Apr 12, 2013 11:04 |  #54

bobbyz wrote in post #15819301 (external link)
Honestly start with 7d. You think AF is no good and even folks using center AF point on 1dx don't know nothing IMHO. Maybe they still used to their older cameras and don't know how to properly use the newer bodies. Get some nice lenses. As newer bodies come in, upgrade over time.

Getting 300mm f2.8 IS will improve your pictures more than getting 6d/5dmk3 etc. For indoors you need f2 lens. If only thing listed in the signature then spend money there first. If you can't get the shot with 7d, move to something else. Honestly.

I know someone who shoots 10000 indoor shots over one weekend and they did this even without new high ISO bodies. Got to know the tools and how to use them. And shooting sports aint no cheap.

What ^^^ he said. Plus...

AFAIK The cross AF points don't work below f2.8 on ANY Canon body except the 1d series or the new 6d (which at FF is a silly choice for sports) which only work down to f5.6. The 7d has more than good enough AF if you put a big enough hole in front of it. Same with your 550 so, fast glass is where its at.

If budget is low, forget about IS for indoor sports - there's no point, you won't freeze action with image stabilization. IS just lets the shutter stay open for longer so unless the players are sleeping on the bench, they'll be blurred. Get a 70-200 2.8L Second hand for about $700 and limit focus to between 3m to infinity (switch on the side of the lens). Set the body to Tv (shutter priority) and don't go below 1/320 (that's the old rule of thumb of 1/focal length(in mm) x crop value = 1/200 x 1.6) that way you will guarantee to eliminate camera shake which might later be blamed on bad AF! Try fixing the ISO to 1600 and let the camera set the aperture for you. - Remember: although the camera may lower the aperture to say f8 or so for the actual shot, the aperture will be wide open when the camera is focusing, letting all that lovely light through a big f2.8 hole onto your happy little AF sensor. Run some tests and see how that works for you. If you're still getting noise, bring the ISO down to 800 and shutter to 1/250 (any lower and action will start to blur - unless that's what you want?) and stick the rig on a monopod.

If you are allowed to, strap a pair of strobes (set to full power) up high on the bleachers or gaffered to the wall one either side of the sports hall and use cheapo wireless triggers to give yourself a bit of extra light on the first couple of shots in each burst...like this (external link)

When it comes to Auto ISO Canons aren't too clever. If you use Auto ISO, they don't let you limit the lowest shutter speed to account for the focal length of your lens. Nikons do... Bummer! Live with it or buy Nikon.

Don't waste money on a new body though. save it for fast glass


Bodies: EOS 500D, EOS1DS Canon Lenses: EF 50 f1.8, EF 70-200 f2.8 L, EF 20-35 f2.8 L, EF 28-135 IS USM Other Lenses: Zeiss Pancolar 80 1.8, Zeiss Flektogon 35 2.4, Zeiss Sonnar 135 3.5, Pentax Super Takumar 50mm 1.4, Helios 55 f2, RMC Tokina 17mm f3.5

  
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Apr 12, 2013 11:28 |  #55

Those shots the OP posted do nothing for me. Looking at the back/side of someone isn't very interesting at all. The 2 where you can see their faces has one of them competing for a gurning championship, whilst the other is blurred. I'm assuming they're the pick of his bunch.
Stop worrying about a body upgrade and learn to use what you have..........


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whothafunk
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Apr 12, 2013 11:37 |  #56

Preeb wrote in post #15819503 (external link)
One thing that the OP needs to learn if he wants people to understand him is the terminology. Auto-focus is what ALL of the AF points do. You can select which ones are active in the menu, but if AF it on, any active point will all perform its auto-focus function. Center point only is still auto-focus.

Don't have much time so I'll just reply to this. I understand that completely and I also understand that I actually didn't mean what I wrote. What I meant to say is that I don't let my DSLR choose the focus points, but I manually set it to center focus point. Really sorry about that confusion. With that I really presented myself as a total newbie.

@Alunh, I already have a 70-200L f2.8 IS USM II, why are you suggesting me a non IS version of the same lens? And save money for a fast glass? Like, 200mm f2.0? I don't think so, 70-200 f2.8 v2 is an awesome glass and my next investment should be a better body.


1DX :: 300mm 2.8L IS USM :: 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II :: 8-15L f4 USM fisheye :: 24-70 2.8L USM :: 1.4x III extender :: Tamron 15-30 f2.8 VC

  
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w0m
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Apr 12, 2013 12:27 |  #57

alunh wrote in post #15819916 (external link)
What ^^^ he said. Plus...

AFAIK The cross AF points don't work below f2.8 on ANY Canon body except the 1d series or the new 6d (which at FF is a silly choice for sports) which only work down to f5.6. The 7d has more than good enough AF if you put a big enough hole in front of it. Same with your 550 so, fast glass is where its at.

If budget is low, forget about IS for indoor sports - there's no point, you won't freeze action with image stabilization. IS just lets the shutter stay open for longer so unless the players are sleeping on the bench, they'll be blurred. Get a 70-200 2.8L Second hand for about $700 and limit focus to between 3m to infinity (switch on the side of the lens). Set the body to Tv (shutter priority) and don't go below 1/320 (that's the old rule of thumb of 1/focal length(in mm) x crop value = 1/200 x 1.6) that way you will guarantee to eliminate camera shake which might later be blamed on bad AF! Try fixing the ISO to 1600 and let the camera set the aperture for you. - Remember: although the camera may lower the aperture to say f8 or so for the actual shot, the aperture will be wide open when the camera is focusing, letting all that lovely light through a big f2.8 hole onto your happy little AF sensor. Run some tests and see how that works for you. If you're still getting noise, bring the ISO down to 800 and shutter to 1/250 (any lower and action will start to blur - unless that's what you want?) and stick the rig on a monopod.

If you are allowed to, strap a pair of strobes (set to full power) up high on the bleachers or gaffered to the wall one either side of the sports hall and use cheapo wireless triggers to give yourself a bit of extra light on the first couple of shots in each burst...like this (external link)

When it comes to Auto ISO Canons aren't too clever. If you use Auto ISO, they don't let you limit the lowest shutter speed to account for the focal length of your lens. Nikons do... Bummer! Live with it or buy Nikon.

Don't waste money on a new body though. save it for fast glass

OP has stated he's using

Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS USM and Canon 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II, can't do much better.

My opinion; OP needs to learn to learn better technique or post processing; 7D will let him switch off of only using center point; and he will get a higher keeper %; but gear only lets you go so far. If he can't keep a high enough shutter speed to keep that 70-200 mkII sharp @ acceptable ISO; then options are:

1: improve technique. Are you using a monopod? How are you shooting? Maybe clean body/lens?
2: Improve gear 6D only way to get better ISO performance in budget(marginally better AF); 5dmkiii will give you better AF as well if you can stretch ISO. Would 85 f/1.8 give better results than the 70-200 if you are already having issues nailing focus? I would tend to think not.


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alunh
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Apr 12, 2013 16:59 |  #58

whothafunk wrote in post #15820026 (external link)
@Alunh, I already have a 70-200L f2.8 IS USM II, why are you suggesting me a non IS version of the same lens? And save money for a fast glass? Like, 200mm f2.0? I don't think so, 70-200 f2.8 v2 is an awesome glass and my next investment should be a better body.

Ok so I missed that point. Do you shoot fixed ISO or auto? Tv,Av or Auto?


Bodies: EOS 500D, EOS1DS Canon Lenses: EF 50 f1.8, EF 70-200 f2.8 L, EF 20-35 f2.8 L, EF 28-135 IS USM Other Lenses: Zeiss Pancolar 80 1.8, Zeiss Flektogon 35 2.4, Zeiss Sonnar 135 3.5, Pentax Super Takumar 50mm 1.4, Helios 55 f2, RMC Tokina 17mm f3.5

  
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CyberDyneSystems
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Apr 12, 2013 17:51 |  #59

apersson850 wrote in post #15815507 (external link)
.

If there's any difference, you need to compare for example a 5D Mark III with a 1DX, since they are both of about the same age and thus processing power. .

1Dx has EXACTLY DOUBLE the processing power in the AF system that the 5DIII has.
They have the same AF system, but the 1Dx has double the processors computing for it.
(despite this difference in processing power and in fact in voltage, The difference in AF speed remains negligible. Showing that it's more about the complete system than power)

I realize that some Nikon systems can improve the AF motor speed with additional power provided by the battery grip. This may be the source of the confusion/conclusion.

as far as we know, on Canon bodies this is not, and has never been the case. The addition of a battery grip with dual batteries, has never increased AF motor drive speed.

Lastly, the fact that one body has a battery of a different voltage than another, does not in any way guarantee, or even should imply that different voltage is being delivered to the lens.
In all electronics, there are numerous stage of power being used, and hardly any of it uses the same voltage as the battery provides.


All that said, I'd be very curious to read specs from the 1D vs other bodies of voltage at the lens connections.
I could be totally wrong here, but I have never read a single spec from Canon that would validate the idea that Canon lenses focus faster with more voltage.
And I can't understand why the battery grip would not help if this was the case.


EDIT So I found this;
http://digitaljournali​st.org/issue0908/tech-tips.html (external link)
And this;
http://www.ronmartblog​.com …nboxing-first-report.html (external link)

I can't find any specs, or more specific info to back this up, but it looks like Chuck Westfall is confirming your theory.
I can't say I have ever felt that a dieing battery has slowed AF. Again, as far as I understand things this should not be the case, but,... looks like I'm wrong on this one.

At the same time, the second link has a quote attributed also to Chuck, where it is explained how the 5D3 AF is superior to all previous bodies including 1D MkIV

Lastly, Chuck indicates that additional voltage from a 1D can help AF speed ONLY on certain lenses.
This f=further confirms your assertion, and here we see the only technical insight I can find as to how this is implemented.


"Lens drive speed: Because of its higher voltage battery, the 1D Mark IV can supply an initial burst of power to select L-series USM telephoto lenses (limited to EF super telephotos)* that drives them twice as fast as normal for the first second of operation. The 5D Mark III can't do that because its battery is lower voltage, and also because the camera body is not designed to accept higher voltage even if it was available**."

* so only with some lenses can the 1D big battery actually increase speed.
** which explains why battery grips do not help AF speed. The bodies they attach to can't let the extra power "burst" to the lens.


Well, I for one have learned a lot today!


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Apr 12, 2013 18:11 |  #60

whothafunk wrote in post #15819008 (external link)
Why is that even important? ...

I find it funny how you people actually think ....


I'm a student which by some coincidence knows how sports should be photographed, ..

Hi jure, no disrespect, but you have to understand that everyone that is taking the time to reply is trying to help.
As you have seen, not everyone contributing to this forum is a sports photographer. If you would like the advise of only fellow sports photographers, you might want to post in this forum;
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdis​play.php?f=117

You have asked this question in the EOS forum, where you will get replies from all EOS users, and they expect that YOU expect that.

I think there is likely a lot you can learn from most of the replies if you'd be willing to,. but you can not expect people not to reply with there own opinions and experiences, This is what happens when you ask a question on an open forum.


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Better DSLRs - do they attain focus faster?
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