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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 03 Jun 2010 (Thursday) 17:51
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Need a roller derby lens!?

 
apixelintime
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Apr 22, 2013 10:42 |  #46

Hybrid - if you are concerned about it, post a question on the leagues facebook wall. I will save you some time - you will read mostly:
"There were flashes going off? Didn't even notice it"
or
"you know, I did see some flashes I think"
with *maybe* a
"a couple bothered me"...

OR, just shoot with a flash, post your photos, let the skaters go nuts over them, liking and tagging themselves - using them as their profile photo - and THEN ask...

Once they see the photos, anyone who may be the slightest bit annoyed will quickly melt when they realize how kick ass your photos are...

Post a link to your work - I would love to see what you are getting!


Christopher Cross | Apixelintime.com | Nightographer.com (coming soon)
Altering reality one pixel at a time.
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Hybrid ­ AWD
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Apr 22, 2013 11:45 |  #47

apixelintime wrote in post #15854711 (external link)
Hybrid - if you are concerned about it, post a question on the leagues facebook wall. I will save you some time - you will read mostly:
"There were flashes going off? Didn't even notice it"
or
"you know, I did see some flashes I think"
with *maybe* a
"a couple bothered me"...

OR, just shoot with a flash, post your photos, let the skaters go nuts over them, liking and tagging themselves - using them as their profile photo - and THEN ask...

Once they see the photos, anyone who may be the slightest bit annoyed will quickly melt when they realize how kick ass your photos are...

Post a link to your work - I would love to see what you are getting!


That's the thing. I spoke with some of the coordinators along with some of the players and they agreed at times it can be bothersome. The last thing I want is to have two photographers there flashing away - Especially when I am shooting 8-10 FPS.

Here is a little collage of B&W shots from the last bout.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: 403 | MIME changed to 'text/plain'


If I make the images smaller, the grain is obviously not much of an issue. So my goal was to shoot in JPEG L format and then reduce the size and see if I can get consistent results.

You can see some of my other work from a scrimmage at http://www.Facebook.co​m/KineticStills (external link) since I've only shot 2 bouts up to this point.



  
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apixelintime
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Apr 22, 2013 12:26 |  #48

Wow - i guess it really depends where you are shooting. The league I shoot for has me with a 580exii on camera, 2 to 3 others just like me and another guy with a 3 strobe set up... So usually 4 or 5 shooters all with flashes...

You have really good composition, you are a little dark based on the shot above. I did look at your FB and I do think you have it, but again - a little light will do wonders! Try shooting in RAW for like 5 minutes one bout to test that out - you will find that you are able to push the exposure around a little better than if you shoot in JPG... Also - try shooting with a flash - if it is really an issue, they will tell you...


Christopher Cross | Apixelintime.com | Nightographer.com (coming soon)
Altering reality one pixel at a time.
A clicky thing | Severial twisty things | A couple of flashy things | A bunch of other things
Posing Guide (external link) | Galleries (external link) | flickr (external link) | FaceBook (external link) | Blog (external link)

  
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Hybrid ­ AWD
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Apr 22, 2013 12:48 |  #49

apixelintime wrote in post #15855060 (external link)
Wow - i guess it really depends where you are shooting. The league I shoot for has me with a 580exii on camera, 2 to 3 others just like me and another guy with a 3 strobe set up... So usually 4 or 5 shooters all with flashes...

You have really good composition, you are a little dark based on the shot above. I did look at your FB and I do think you have it, but again - a little light will do wonders! Try shooting in RAW for like 5 minutes one bout to test that out - you will find that you are able to push the exposure around a little better than if you shoot in JPG... Also - try shooting with a flash - if it is really an issue, they will tell you...

Yeah they are a little dark. I think the next bout I'm going to shoot in RAW. I had my 580 EX II with me but I figured I'd blow through the batteries.

If my memory serves me correct, the other bout (on my FB page) was shot on the 5D MKII and not the 1D MKIV.

Unfortunately, the next bout isn't until June 1st to play around with anything :(




  
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amfoto1
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Apr 22, 2013 13:05 |  #50

Good luck trying to use flash at 8 or 10 fps! It simply won't work with most flashes. You'll have to slow down. If you use fill flash, you might be able to get two or three shots off before having to pause while the flash recycles. With full flash - where the flash discharges more completely and nearly always needs to recycle - you'll probably be shooting one frame at a time. That might not be a bad thing... there's often little to be gained by cranking out 8 or 10 fps, other than a whole lot more pictures to edit at your computer at the end of the day.

With the bigger external flashes (550EX, 580EX, and I think 430EX and later), you can add a supplementary battery pack to force the flash to recycle faster. Canon has their CP-E2, E3 and E4s, that put a bunch of additional batteries at the flash's beck and call and will help. Using rechargeables in both the flash and these supplementary battery packs will also improve recycle time. Or there are even bigger and more powerful third party battery packs (Quantum, etc.)..

HOWEVER, with all these additional power sources you risk burning out the flash tube (Canon probably has a safety switch that shuts the flash down before that happens, as a precaution... I know for certain they do on the flashes built into the cameras.) The batteries themselves heat up, too, with heavy use. I use a few CP-E3 and E4 and they do get a bit warm to the touch, after a longer series of flash shots.

Flash will give the best results in a lot of cases. Even if you get ├╝ber fast lenses, you simply will start to bump up against new problems with too shallow depth of field and heavy shadows, both of which only a flash can solve for you (higher ISOs can't help with shadows, either).

I'd use flash sparingly and mix/supplement it with ambient light shots, as necessary and possible. Look for brighter and more shadow-free areas within the arena where you can do without flash. Alternate shooting there and with flash elsewhere.

I shoot equestrian and sometimes use flash. Many indoor equestrian arenas are damned dark. Some have ugly sodium vapor or mercury vapor lighting (which I ask to be turned off, whenever possible). When it comes to flash, horses very rarely even notice... Occasionally less experienced riders or trainers (or parents) fret about it, but I can only think of a couple instances in many years and many tens of thousands of shots where it's actually been a problem. Nearly always it's young, green horses, so I watch out for those and avoid using flash around them.

It's particularly a no-no to use flash at dressage events... usually. Yet one of the biggest dressage facilities in California has their main arena pre-wired with a bunch of strobes that the "official" photographers can use. So there's a difference depending upon the level of competition... at national and international levels, flash is accepted. It's at the local and more amateur level where it's frowned upon.

I don't know what cameras are being used, but newer models can be better about noise. The original poster of this thread way back when was shooting with 40D... 50D didn't improve much on that (it had similar noise levels and high ISO performance, but with 50% increase in resolution). 60D and 7D certainly did... Offering about a stop higher usable ISO. 5DII's AF is generally too pokey for this type of photography, though it offers yet another stop higher usable ISO. 5DIII and perhaps 6D would be better, about the same high ISO performance as 5DII in RAW, one or two additional stops with in-camera JPEGs, and AF systems that can keep up with action (and are more low light capable). If your checkbook can handle it, 1DX would be fabulous, lower resolution FF equals ultra high ISO capabilities.

For ambient light shooting, you also might look into noise reduction softwares, if not already using something, that allow you to shoot at higher ISOs.

EDIT: Yes, definitely shoot RAW! That will help. RAW files have so much more latitude to make adjustments. Using a RAW batch processing program like Lightroom, you can easily add some "fill light" too, that helps immensely. It's still important to get good exposure. Avoid underexposure like the plague... any time you have to increase exposure in post processing you will amp up noise even more. It's usually better to slightly overexpose, eve use a higher ISO in spite of add'l noise it puts in the image, then reduce exposure slightly in post processing and, if necessary, do some additional NR work on your selected images. Just do the NR work before any final sharpening.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII(x2), 7D(x2) & other cameras. 10-22mm, Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5 Macro, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS (x2), 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, studio strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link) - ZENFOLIO (external link)

  
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Hybrid ­ AWD
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Apr 22, 2013 15:09 |  #51

amfoto1 wrote in post #15855161 (external link)
Good luck trying to use flash at 8 or 10 fps!

Great input. I will definitely shoot RAW next time around and I think that will increase the quality of the images for sure (in post anyways).

I'd really like to see the low light performance difference between the 1D X and my 1D MKIV. I can't imagine it being worlds different though.

As for the flash stuff, I'd definitely want to set up multiple flashes together and turn them down so they arent shooting full power. The 580 EX II can match 9 FPS but like you stated, they will need time to refresh eventually.

The main reason I shoot with the higher FPS is because I like being able to pick between 4-5 shots during a collision or some other similar activity. Is it needed, not really, but I like having options.

Here is another question. Will using a custom WB or specific kelvin temp help offset not using a gel with the flash? Or does the flash need to be gel'd to match the poor ambient light anyways?




  
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bigarchi
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Apr 24, 2013 08:39 |  #52

you're shooting "1D MKIV + 70-200 IS II @ F/2.8 with ISO levels in the 8000 range" and getting photos that underexposed? what kind of shutter speeds?


~Mitch

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bigarchi
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Apr 24, 2013 08:40 |  #53

Hybrid AWD wrote in post #15855594 (external link)
Here is another question. Will using a custom WB or specific kelvin temp help offset not using a gel with the flash? Or does the flash need to be gel'd to match the poor ambient light anyways?

doesn't matter if you are converting them to b&w anyway :)

if you are using the ambient and the flash in the exposure, you really want to get them to be the same (or similar color) by gelling.


~Mitch

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Hybrid ­ AWD
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Apr 24, 2013 08:43 |  #54

bigarchi wrote in post #15861754 (external link)
you're shooting "1D MKIV + 70-200 IS II @ F/2.8 with ISO levels in the 8000 range" and getting photos that underexposed? what kind of shutter speeds?

bigarchi wrote in post #15861758 (external link)
doesn't matter if you are converting them to b&w anyway :)

if you are using the ambient and the flash in the exposure, you really want to get them to be the same (or similar color) by gelling.

I think the underexposure is partly due to my piss poor monitor at home. I'll put the data from the images when I get home and see exactly what those images show.

I typically don't convert them all to B&W but I did for that set above because it just went well with their logo.




  
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bigarchi
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Apr 26, 2013 09:34 |  #55

sounds good.
yeah, i like b&w with derby anyway. :)


~Mitch

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Grumpy_one
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Apr 26, 2013 15:47 as a reply to  @ bigarchi's post |  #56

I did derby for a couple of months just for the experience. It was a lot of fun. The practiced method at the rink I was allowed to shoot at was having 3-5 strobes attached at various points along the track with triggers and battery packs. We all had to coordinate equipment and channels. Lots of flashes going off during a bout, girls didn't seem to mind being they got images of themselves in return. I now have more speedlights and triggers than necessary, not sure if that's entirely true.


I shoot Canon's
1DX II, Canon 7D Gripped, 5D3, 24-70L II, 70-200L 2.8 IS Mk I, 85 1.8, Pocket Wizard II triggers, assorted speedlites and modifiers, 580EX, 580EXII, YN560's (6 or so) 50 1.4, t/c 1.4 MkII
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QuentinC
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Jun 02, 2013 18:08 |  #57

First time to post on this site! Glad there is a whole section discussing shooting roller derby. I've been shooting my friends bouts the past few weeks with a Canon ELPH 520(some shots have come out okay for a point and shoot) I'll be getting a new and better suited for indoor sports camera and lens in July. I plan on getting a Canon T2i and the 85mm/1.8 lens. Is that a good combination for shooting roller derby? I can get up and move around for better vantage points(already close to the action) and I can use the flash if needed to(amazingly, the ELPH 520 shots I took are brighter and better without the flash, even in a dim lit skating rink) Thanks for any advice and recommendations!




  
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icacphotography
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Jun 02, 2013 18:11 |  #58

Not sure a T2i would cut it. You need something with VERY fast AF or good AI Servo. an 85/1.8 should be fast enough in the focus department itself but I'm wondering if your T2i will hunt in the low light conditions you'll be in. As for flash assuming you want to freeze action a great way to shoot is to use M mode, dial in your cameras max sync speed (1/250th in most cases) bounce the flash and leave it in ETTL. Heck you can even shoot at ISO 100 and don't worry about the the camera saying the exposure is underexposed the flash with ETTL will compensate and fire enough light to properly expose the subject. Nice thing about this is you get the fast action stopping you'd want and you can get far cleaner images shooting at lower ISO values.


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apixelintime
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Jun 03, 2013 08:46 |  #59

Q - I will work with you...


Christopher Cross | Apixelintime.com | Nightographer.com (coming soon)
Altering reality one pixel at a time.
A clicky thing | Severial twisty things | A couple of flashy things | A bunch of other things
Posing Guide (external link) | Galleries (external link) | flickr (external link) | FaceBook (external link) | Blog (external link)

  
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