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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 26 May 2013 (Sunday) 17:20
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Some questions for Full Frame users (any model) with previous APS-C experience

 
iamascientist
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May 26, 2013 20:47 |  #16

brettjrob wrote in post #15970431 (external link)
It seems you're arguing with a point that no one is making, then. Everyone would agree that even a phone camera can take good pictures in the easiest of circumstances. As elements of the scene, like available light and dynamic range, become more challenging, the range of cameras capable of getting a great image narrows. Therefore, for people who frequently shoot challenging scenes, the following are true: a) a higher-end camera may be necessary (even FF, in some cases, like night landscapes), and b) the saying "it's the photographer, not the equipment" is bogus.

I was replying to the OP's disagreement that any camera can take a good picture. I didn't say that any camera is capable of creating a great image in every circumstance. Also, why is FF needed for night landscapes? I'm pretty sure there's plenty of good low light work that's been done with the slew of apsc cameras from the past to the present.

If you want to give your gear all the credit, go right ahead.




  
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Tommy1957
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May 26, 2013 20:53 |  #17

I was taking pictures when the Brownie Hawkeye Flash was a popular family camera. I moved to 35mm SLR in the 1970s. My first bridge camera was a Panasonic FZ8. I have been shooting D-SLR since 2009 and a FF D-SLR since December. I can still take a bad shot with any of them, well except the Hawkeye, film isn't available anymore. Funny, I still don't think photography is about the camera. Someone who knows what they are trying to achieve, and how to operate the tool at hand, will generate a better photograph than someone ignorant of those two things. Regardless of equipment. I am sure Ansel Adams could do more with my cell phone than I could with a 1DX. The FF/APSc debate is pointless.




  
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FlyingPhotog
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May 26, 2013 20:54 |  #18

A slightly different spin....

Whichever size sensor you prefer, stay consistent if you have multiple bodies.

Once upon a time, I had a FF, an APS-H and an APS-C and it drove me nuts! I was always too wide when I wanted reach or else I couldn't get wide enough when I needed to. Rarely did I have the perfect lens/sensor combo and everything was a giant exercise in compromise.

Eventually, I "settled" for three APS-H bodies and any issues related to field of view went away.

So, whether you love FF or Crop, I'd suggest people stick with one or the other and build their system accordingly.

Just my $0.02


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BIllionfps
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May 26, 2013 21:14 |  #19

I sold my 7D and EFS lenses and went FF. Thin DOF and being awesome in low is what I needed.


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Tommy1957
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May 26, 2013 21:20 |  #20

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #15970477 (external link)
A slightly different spin....

Whichever size sensor you prefer, stay consistent if you have multiple bodies.

Once upon a time, I had a FF, an APS-H and an APS-C and it drove me nuts! I was always too wide when I wanted reach or else I couldn't get wide enough when I needed to. Rarely did I have the perfect lens/sensor combo and everything was a giant exercise in compromise.

Eventually, I "settled" for three APS-H bodies and any issues related to field of view went away.

So, whether you love FF or Crop, I'd suggest people stick with one or the other and build their system accordingly.

Just my $0.02

My dilemma exactly. Sticking with apsc is much cheaper. I already have the equipment I want in that format: 10-22, 15-85. My 70-200 and 100-400 work well on either. The only thing missing in my apsc line-up is a fast wide prime ~ 20-24 f/2 or better. If I go whole-hog into FF, I am looking at, at minimum, a 17-40, 28 1.8, 24-70 (II or f/4 IS) on top of replacing my aged 5D with a 6D (more than adequate) or a 5D3 ($$$??).




  
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alann
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May 26, 2013 22:22 |  #21

I miss my crop bodies. :( Wish I had not sold my 1dIV for the 5D III. I am waiting to see what the 7D II will bring. If it is as good as I hope I will be putting my 5D III in the for sale section for sure.


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auto-clicker
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May 26, 2013 22:34 as a reply to  @ alann's post |  #22

I will use the best tool for the job that I can afford :)

*vote me for president!!!!*




  
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Sirrith
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May 26, 2013 23:19 |  #23

msowsun wrote in post #15970427 (external link)
The trouble with any argument in favor of crop cameras is that, if a 1.6x crop is good, why not go to a 2x crop like the 4/3 cameras? And then if 2x is good, why not just use a 6x crop Bridge camera?

Thing is, the m4/3 cameras nowadays have better IQ than Canon's APS-C bodies. So you can argue for 2x. But at the same time you can't really argue for smaller and smaller crops ad nauseum.


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ejenner
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May 26, 2013 23:34 as a reply to  @ Sirrith's post |  #24

I just got a 7D after using a 5D2 exclusively for 18+ months (I used my t1i twice in that time). Realistically I'll probably use the 7D 30% over the course of the year, but recently it has been more like 90% as I figured out I can now take shot of birds as well as better shots of my kids playing sports. Unfortunately it might be the most expensive $850 I've ever spent when I decide I need a 'birding lens' for $7k.

Honestly though, I could easily see someone choosing a 7D over a 5D2 for their particular type of shooting. I guess now one could just say get a 5D3 instead (or 1DX, but I still like the reach of a crop for sports and bird photos.

As far as the OP's question #3, yes the 5D2 image quality is better than the 7D. Not just the 'raw' noise as you might see in comparisons but the dark hue and tonal graduations (the 7D is still not the same as just using the 5D2 at 1 stop higher ISO IMO). It might depend again on what you shoot and how you process as to whether it make much of a difference though. It does to me in portraits and landscapes, but even after using the FF for a while I find the 7D IQ perfectly acceptable (even up to ISO 1600) for many applications. I'm really glad I got that camera now.

I know we all like to have everything 'black and 'white' or 'good' and 'bad', but the real world is not like that.


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Tony_Stark
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May 27, 2013 00:03 |  #25

Unexpressive wrote in post #15969842 (external link)
1. You own a FF and use it intensively for your current work/art. Would you go back to frequently use an APS-C camera? If no, can elaborate a bit on your reasons why not.
2. Do you still own an APS-C? if yes, how often you still use the aps-c? If you don't own the APS-c, what's the reason for getting rid of it. (seems obvious but still want to know).
3. Based on your experience with both systems. Do you find any quality differences between the previous APS-C and the current FF? (I assume that most of the differences, if any, are perceived. No looking for scientific tests or long technical explanations about the quality differences).

1. I would not go back to my 50D. The quality of the files is leagues better with my 5D2. The noise and general IQ of my FF shots are much cleaner and easier for me to work with. Dynamic range is very much improved over my 50D.

2. I sold my 50D as I no longer used it. I have recently acquired the EOS M, so have APS-C back in my lineup.

3. Better ISO performance, better image quality (less grain in general), much better dynamic range, slightly better DoF (shallower).


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DavidG.
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May 27, 2013 00:07 |  #26

I had a 7D paired up with my 24-70 and 70-200. Now I have my 5D3 that I keep pair up with the 24-70 while the 70-200 goes on the 7D. This works well together.


Canon 5D Mark III | Canon 7D | 17-40 f/4L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 f/4 L | 70-200 f/2.8 L IS | 580 EX II

  
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ElectronGuru
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May 27, 2013 02:05 as a reply to  @ DavidG.'s post |  #27

Some great posts here. This thread is a good example of the problem with choice...

Traditionally, technology always gets better and the only reason for a company to release something new (a 2nd choice) is because its better. So adding a new choice becomes a straightforward newer = better or money = more. Or better yet, the old choice is obsolete and you are left with one new choice. Sure the 1st investment is now worthless, but at least the choice of what to get next is easy! But that didn't happen here. FF sensors were (and remain) more expensive, to the point that many early adopters (myself included) had to 'downgrade' to smaller sensors when migrating from film. And we seem to be stuck with 2 complete and somewhat convergent platforms - indefinitely.

Theoretically, the only reason a smaller well built sensor, should be inherently inferior to a larger well built sensor, is if something happens to light rays, where a sensor is so small, not as many photons are available to reach it (say photons per pixel per second). So say canon made two complete and independent lines, with the mini line being half sized (top to bottom), but having 100% of the same bodies and lens models at the exact same prices. You could have everything from a mini wide tilt shift, all the way up to a mini equivalent to the 1200mm super tele. With same quality glass and sensors, cameras behave the same and photos look the same. Which would you then choose?

Reality is somewhat like this, EF-S are smaller for similar performance, but thats equivalent to longer non L EF lenses. If you want L glass, you still pay L prices and still carry around L grams. You just don't get the 'full advantage' of the glass you buy. And its easy to say that IQ of a 1 year old 5DIII bests and 5 or 10 year old crop (that even knew was a quarter the price), but that isn't really an apples to apples comparison. The closest examples of two cameras from each of these formats is the 6D and 7D. Assuming equal bodies (the 7D has somewhat better controls), the extra cost of a 6D goes largely into the bigger sensor and wireless systems. So how do they compare?

Well, I just got the 6D not 2 weeks ago and took these photos this very week. Same table, same lens (16-35 mki), nearly the same lighting

A shot of a 7D, taken by a 6D:

IMAGE: http://i44.tinypic.com/142m21.jpg


and a shot of a 6D, taken by a 7D (which I just sold, using the above pic):

IMG NOTICE: [NOT AN IMAGE URL, NOT RENDERED INLINE]



Strictly speaking, I don't know that one bests the other under these conditions (which were not chosen to find sensor differences). The 6D is a really good camera. The 7D is a really good camera. If you have a stable of EF-S lenses you love, the 7D is a great way to go. If those were just the best you could get at the time (whatever the reason) and you feel you've outgrown them, why not step up. As long as Canon continues supporting both lines with robust options, go what what you love/need.

Do I love the 6D, yes. Did I love the 7D? Not really, but not because it wasn't an excellent performer. Bottom line: with the advent of quality affordable sensors on both platforms, the choice comes down to which lenses you want and what size sensor you prefer being behind them.

"Light is the paint, lenses are brush, sensors are the canvas"
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westernminnguy
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May 27, 2013 03:19 as a reply to  @ ElectronGuru's post |  #28

Bought the 5DIII but also am keeping my 7D.

I still use my 7D for action and birding...mostly because of the faster shutter speed.

I'm using my 5DIII for portrait/landscapes and because of the incredible AF system, have been using it more for birding. A bird shot with the 5DIII attached. The AF of the 5DIII really follows small birds with fast movement well.

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msowsun
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May 27, 2013 06:16 |  #29

Sirrith wrote in post #15970854 (external link)
Thing is, the m4/3 cameras nowadays have better IQ than Canon's APS-C bodies. So you can argue for 2x. But at the same time you can't really argue for smaller and smaller crops ad nauseum.

I haven't really been following 4/3 cameras. Are you saying they are better than the 7D or the newest models like the T4i or T5i?

EDIT: I just read a review on the Olympus OM-D E-M5 which is said to be the best m4/3 camera. The Image quality is impressive: http://www.dpreview.co​m/reviews/olympusem5/2​2 (external link)

The 7D is an old camera now, and the 7D Mk II will probably raise the bar again.

Image Quality

The E-M5 sets a new benchmark for Micro Four Thirds images, thanks to a modern sensor and Olympus' excellent JPEG engine. It continues to produce good results in lower light than was previously practical and produces attractive output in all but the most challenging of situations. The combination of its small body and the small lenses available for it (specifically the Panasonic 20mm F1.7 and Olympus 45mm F1.8) mean it's a camera we found ourselves taking everywhere, without any concerns that we were having to make undue compromises on image quality.

The E-M5 can't completely overcome the light capture disadvantage brought by its smaller sensor, compared to APS-C, but it reduces it to the point that it's irrelevant for almost all practical purposes. At which point we think its size advantage, in terms of both body and lenses, will outweigh that difference for most uses. If you're absolutely unwilling to compromise on image quality then spending twice the money and moving up to the bulk of full-frame is the only way of gaining a significant step up from the E-M5.


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Gregg.Siam
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May 27, 2013 06:21 as a reply to  @ westernminnguy's post |  #30

1. I looked at every image I shot and found I shoot about 90% portraits. I wanted the best portrait camera I could afford. I was in the market for a bigger body (my hands hate Rebel bodies) and better controls. The clear winner was a 5D2 or 5D3....I went with the 5D3 for the AF.

2. I'm not rich. I traded in my old 550D to knock down the 5D3 price a little bit.

3. Better high ISO performance. The shallow DoF at same distance, lens, etc...was more appealing for portraits. Not really a quality of FF, but the bright pentaprism, better ergonomics, and 100% coverage were welcome features.

Honestly I have taken great shots with my old 550D that you could probably not tell apart from my 5D3. Technically, the 5D3 beat my old 550D in every way, but it comes down to a lot of factors. FF is not a magic solution that enables unicorns to come out of your shots. Put some L glass on an old body and know what you are doing...the results are going to be splitting hairs.


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Some questions for Full Frame users (any model) with previous APS-C experience
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