Luma Cinch fanboys...show me what you got!

Seek wrote in post #15988629
luma labs has been so great with responding to any questions or requests so i hate bringing up anything not positive however I had a rather important question regarding the quick links. I've been using the strap since release and I noticed a few times that one of the quick links was unscrewed. I am wondering if Im not tightening it enough (hand tighten) and if anyone else is experiencing this. I'm just a little worried because I dont want it falling off the strap. I'm now constantly checking the links as I walk, and am considering not even using them.

That's the problem with that type of link. I'd buy a small combination wrench to place on my keyring to fix that problem. Use the box end to loop on the ring, the open end to tighten the links. For that size nut a short stubby shouldn't be much larger than a key. Or, if you're handy make one up out of some scrap stock laying around the garage.

If you carry your camera bag everywhere just putting a wrench in the bag would be fine too.

Or, Luma could take the hint and include a little stamped key ring wrench with the strap...

If you really want to lock the Link down, you don't need a wrench... pliers will do the job just fine, but you really shouldn't have to.

We went through a pretty exhaustive search for the optimal quick release solution. We selected Mallion Rapide quick links because we found them to be the optimal combination of strength, reliability, obvious operation, cost and size.

In normal operation, they won't accidentally come undone. In fact, tension on the link actually works to lock the screw gate closed (as the C shape part spreads under load, it puts pressure on the screw threads). Of course, if there is something rubbing against the link gate, there is a possibility that it could loosen. All screw connections (our links, PodMounts, plates, etc) should be checked daily and when pulling your gear out of your bag.

gakoenig wrote in post #15989511
If you really want to lock the Link down, you don't need a wrench... pliers will do the job just fine, but you really shouldn't have to.

We went through a pretty exhaustive search for the optimal quick release solution. We selected Mallion Rapide quick links because we found them to be the optimal combination of strength, reliability, obvious operation, cost and size.

In normal operation, they won't accidentally come undone. In fact, tension on the link actually works to lock the screw gate closed (as the C shape part spreads under load, it puts pressure on the screw threads). Of course, if there is something rubbing against the link gate, there is a possibility that it could loosen. All screw connections (our links, PodMounts, plates, etc) should be checked daily and when pulling your gear out of your bag.

The person I responded to said his was coming loose. That has been my experience with that type of link. I don't have one of yours. Maybe it is special and doesn't come undone. Still the person who has one says it does come loose. I suggested he use a wrench to tighten it. You suggested it doesn't come loose but use pliers if it does.

I've found that pliers tend to mar the finish and are usually less effective. If that's all I had I would use them but otherwise I'd use a wrench. A small wrench could also be kept on a keyring so it's always around. Hence I suggested a small wrench.

I'm not really sure why you would suggest using pliers instead of a wrench or insinuate that the link does not come loose as the owner stated. PR I guess, but it didn't convince me. As for your exhaustive studies let me ask what version you're on now with your strap? Seems like I recall exhaustive studies finding the optimal solution before a time or two. Wish you the best of luck on your quest for the perfect strap. I'm just surprised that they continue to let you use POTN for a test market/release announcement vehicle.

Many months ago I suggested to you that you find a different method for manufacturing your metal buckles. It was tying you down with expense and production delays. You told me that your way was the best and that you had found the very best way to do it. You weren't real happy with me then either.

Now you have found that a plastic/graphite (going off memory on your description, apologies if I described it incorrectly ) buckle works even better. No more production delays and it's more cost effective. Before your expensive metal buckles were the only way it could be done and it had to be done on that expensive high demand machinery. Funny how that worked out.

I'm not saying his quick links didn't come loose. Nor am I saying that quick links are some infallible object that can't possibly fail. What I *am* saying, is that finger tightened quick links simply won't come loose unless something acts on the gate to loosen it. That could be other gear in your camera bag as objects shift around while you carry it. That could be another piece of gear on your body. (If this was an aircraft or vehicle application, we would talk about high frequency vibrations, but that isn't so relevant in a camera strap).

If I came off as trying to deflect the original poster's issue as simply having not happened, I apologize. My intent was to say that there is some force going on in his setup that is rubbing against the gate and opening it.

I only suggest pliers as a solution for folks who are concerned about the gate opening and/or are working in environments where there is a greater chance something could be rubbing against the link. Why pliers? They are a universal tool that everyone has access to, often right in their pocket. As for the finish, these aren't big industrial safety links; it doesn't take much torque with pliers to instill a bit more confidence than finger tightening.

Optimal solution takes price into consideration. When we evaluated quick links against the other common solutions (gate clips and side release buckles being the most prevalent), we found that the size, simplicity, reliability and strength of the quick link was the best and the possibility for failure was the lowest. Side release buckles are very bulky in the 1" size required for sufficient strength and gate clips are very easy to make fail with minimal twisting action.

Take price out of the equation, and there are better solutions. In fact, I've been quite vocal in telling folks about Swiss Le Hooks, but their availability is highly limited and getting a pair in the US will cost you $55. They are quite amazing though.

When have I ever been "not happy" with anyone on here?

Lots of folks wrote us suggesting that the Cinch should have polymer hardware instead of CNC milled hardware to prevent camera scratching. Obviously, it was something we considered when we launched the Cinch initially, but the problem is that injection molded hardware requires a mold... This is an investment of tens of thousands of dollars by the time your done developing the part, testing it with SLA models, producing the initial mold and making any tweaks to that mold. To be perfectly honest, we simply didn't have that kind of capital sitting around, nor were we interested in taking on massive debt to bring a new product concept to the market.

And of course, after having made that significant investment, the very first comments we got with the Cinch 2 launch were "Where did the cool metal hardware go?"

Luma is literally a two guy company. We aren't Apple. We can't afford to do crazy things like tool an entire new product up for production and kill it off at the last minute. We need to be cautious and we need to work within our resources. Where we do copy Apple is that we strive to make the best products we possibly can and continually evolve those products with the help of sales of previous products, feedback from customers, our supplier relationships and our experience.

This is how products evolve. This is why Ford isn't still making the Model T. This is why Apple is on the 6th version of the iPhone in 6 years. This is why there will (someday) be a Cinch 3 (and a Lux, and maybe a Loop 3... who knows?).

Greg,

I wasn't able to purchase the Loop because I waited too long. I can't imagine it being better than the Cinch. I've been using Cinch 1 for a while now and love it. I ordered the Cinch 2 for my wife's new SL1. I'm sort of looking forward to being able to compare the two in person. It shows up Monday which is fine with me... Mondays are my Fridays since I work Sat - Mon.

luciddreamer wrote in post #15989732

Wow, you're a treat.

POTN rules aside, here we have a manufacturer who is customer-responsive to a fault, and it seems rather churlish to berate him for whatever design decision that was made and to suggest that this very same customer engagement was really a front for beta testing their product.

And by the way, my clips have not budged a bit since I put them on, and I just shove my camera into the bag and take no particular care in making sure the clip isn't rubbing up against anuthing. Perhaps there is something wrong with the clip of the poster who had them coming loose?

luciddreamer wrote in post #15989732
Many months ago I suggested to you that you find a different method for manufacturing your metal buckles. It was tying you down with expense and production delays. You told me that your way was the best and that you had found the very best way to do it. You weren't real happy with me then either.

Now you have found that a plastic/graphite (going off memory on your description, apologies if I described it incorrectly ) buckle works even better. No more production delays and it's more cost effective. Before your expensive metal buckles were the only way it could be done and it had to be done on that expensive high demand machinery. Funny how that worked out.

Well, pin a rose on your nose

gakoenig wrote in post #15989982
When have I ever been "not happy" with anyone on here?

Lots of folks wrote us suggesting that the Cinch should have polymer hardware instead of CNC milled hardware to prevent camera scratching. Obviously, it was something we considered when we launched the Cinch initially, but the problem is that injection molded hardware requires a mold... This is an investment of tens of thousands of dollars by the time your done developing the part, testing it with SLA models, producing the initial mold and making any tweaks to that mold. To be perfectly honest, we simply didn't have that kind of capital sitting around, nor were we interested in taking on massive debt to bring a new product concept to the market.

And of course, after having made that significant investment, the very first comments we got with the Cinch 2 launch were "Where did the cool metal hardware go?"

Luma is literally a two guy company. We aren't Apple. We can't afford to do crazy things like tool an entire new product up for production and kill it off at the last minute. We need to be cautious and we need to work within our resources. Where we do copy Apple is that we strive to make the best products we possibly can and continually evolve those products with the help of sales of previous products, feedback from customers, our supplier relationships and our experience.

This is how products evolve. This is why Ford isn't still making the Model T. This is why Apple is on the 6th version of the iPhone in 6 years. This is why there will (someday) be a Cinch 3 (and a Lux, and maybe a Loop 3... who knows?).

...and this is why when a customer tells you your product has a flaw you don't tell him it does not, it works great we tested it.

MOkoFOko wrote in post #15990701
Well, pin a rose on your nose

I really don't think I was any ruder than you in this reply or Greg was to me in his original reply. That's my opinion. I'm sure it's not yours but I'm ok with that.

Scrumhalf wrote in post #15990343
POTN rules aside, here we have a manufacturer who is customer-responsive to a fault, and it seems rather churlish to berate him for whatever design decision that was made and to suggest that this very same customer engagement was really a front for beta testing their product.

And by the way, my clips have not budged a bit since I put them on, and I just shove my camera into the bag and take no particular care in making sure the clip isn't rubbing up against anuthing. Perhaps there is something wrong with the clip of the poster who had them coming loose?

Yes, lets just put POTN rules aside... good answer. I hardly berated him. I replied to him in the same manner that he replied to me originally. Dismissive of his answer and offering a reason for my stance. Sorry it hurt your feelings so much.

LOL... why should it hurt my feelings? I'm a 3rd party here.

And I am just pointing out that my link has no looseness whatsoever. I finger tightened it and it does not budge. In fact, when I need to move the strap back and forth from the tripod foot of my 10-400 to the camera plate because I am using a smaller lens, it takes a good deal of my strength to get it undone. So, I'm not buying the notion that there is a "problem with that type of link" (your words from post #1231 in this thread). Could Seek have received a bad link? Perhaps, not sure. But you took his data point to conclude that there is a generic design issue with the choice of link - I'm not convinced that leap is warranted, and Greg's assessment in #1232 and #1235 seems reasonable to me.

But hey, POTN is by and large one of the most civil forums I have been around and I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. What disagreements you had with Greg and how well (or poorly) they were resolved is between you and him. But if you don't like the product, go buy something else - that's what I would do. Every product has to make compromises, whether you are talking about a computer chip or an airplane or a camera strap. That's why you have dozens of manufacturers, each with his own notion of how the design tradeoffs should be managed and perhaps one of them will see eye to eye with you in this regard (although I seriously doubt anyone else would be gracious enough to engage in the kind of in-depth technical discussion on their product that Greg seems willing to do).

I wasn't trying to be snarky or combative in my reply to you, and if I came of that way, I sincerely apologize.

The only reason I may have been a bit emphatic is that I don't think folks need to run out and start procuring specialty 6mm wrenches to tighten down their links. *IF* someone feels the need to really screw them down, I honestly think that job can be accomplished with a pair of pliers without any undue damage to the finish of the link.

As to our design decisions, I have absolutely no problem getting critiques. I spend about 75% of my time exploring concepts, design options, materials and manufacturing techniques that (for various reasons) never make it into the product. For example, here is just a small smattering of Cinch 2 project design concepts sitting in an Akro Bin on my desk: