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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 04 Jun 2013 (Tuesday) 17:27
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AI Servo always more blurry than other modes. (even stationary subjects)

 
lovemyram4x4
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Jun 05, 2013 13:14 |  #16

Sahare wrote in post #16002287 (external link)
Final question though, what do you lose if you turn AF centre point expansion off? No problems for paid wedding works and such?

EDIT: Canon really should fix that in their firmware, there is no need for the servo to front focus 2 inches when AF point expansion is on. I mean it "always" front focuses 2 inches, they should just fix that. If I shoot a (slow) posing model in a studio I focus on the eyes, I don't want the nose to be sharp and the eyes blurry!

AI servo with expansion isn't meant for the type of shot you posted. Expansion is good for when your trying to maintain focus on things that hard to track, so if your main AF point goes off the target you don't lose focus to something in that background.

For the shot you posted single point(no expansion) is the only way to know it won't think the target is at one of the the other points. Same thing with shooting people, if you use expansion there's a good chance it will focus using one of the out points that's over the nose instead of the eye(usually it will pick which ever point that has teh best contrast and is closest). This can happen in 1 shot as well but at least it lets you know which point it used to get focus(I wish the 5DIII lit up which point it was using while in expansion like my 1DIV does).




  
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Franz-Olof
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Jun 05, 2013 13:36 as a reply to  @ lovemyram4x4's post |  #17

Contradiction still remains? Canon guy on the video claims one shot to be better for still objects and at the same time some claim the servo to be better - especially with shallow dof (since there is always some movement like breathing).


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Jun 05, 2013 13:40 |  #18

Franz-Olof wrote in post #16002737 (external link)
Contradiction still remains? Canon guy on the video claims one shot to be better for still objects and at the same time some claim the servo to be better - especially with shallow dof (since there is always some movement like breathing).

If you stop breathing... Depth of Field takes a whole new meaning...:D


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Sahare
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Jun 05, 2013 17:39 |  #19

Yes tdodd, but if it is an issue simply of enlarging the AF point surface, the error should occur in "One Shot" aswell.

And the consistent AI Servo focus error (while AF point expansion is enabled) is not just on angled surfaces. It's for every stationary shot! (Using tripod and remote release).

And an eyesocket is an angled surface too. It means those shots will fail, and they do.

The beauty of back button focusing (BBF) is you can leave it on one AF mode (AI Servo) to rule them all, studio work, weddings, action, sports, streetlife, whatever. Press the button it keeps focussing, release it and it does one shot.

No need to worry about is the subject moving or not, fumble with camera change settings, etc. Now I do hope that turning center point expansion off eliminates the "off" focus of using AI Servo in a One Shot mode. I will test tonight. If it is true I will kiss One Shot (And therefore AI Focus) goodbye forever.

But yeah breathing and such should not make a difference, I mean the servomechanism is not moving unless you "hear" it focus. I just want a setup with CF tripod, good ballhead and remote release to give identical stationary object "One Shot" focus performance, when I am "One Shotting" in "AI Servo" mode, if that makes sense. (since I use BBF)


PS: Turns out I wasn't the only one to discover this fault in the 5DII:

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=624340

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=652220

http://www.clubsnap.co​m …n-af-point-expansion.html (external link)




  
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amfoto1
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Jun 05, 2013 23:25 |  #20

Nope, it won't occur in One Shot as well.

The "fault" isn't with the camera. Sorry, but it's with the person using the camera. Please look in the manual on pages 80 and 199 to have a better understanding of the Assist Points and AF Expansion, how it works, when it doesn't, and how the invisible points are arranged.

AF Point Expansion of the type on 5DII (and 5D classic) is unique to these models and it's very important to remember that it only works in AI Servo. It does not work in One Shot. This is why you are getting better results with One Shot, shooting an angled subject in your tests.

AF Point Expansion on 5D/5DII is done with six "hidden/invisible" points clustered right around the center AF point (it's sort of as if the entire Spot Metering circle area becomes one big AF point, except that only part of it is the better "dual axis" type of point). When you are using AI Servo with Expansion on, you are risking or causing an error... see the keyboard example above. The camera will focus on whatever is closest to the camera and covered by an AF point. So one of the Expansion points below the center is focusing on a closer object, rather than the center point that's the only one active in One Shot. So, in an example like this with the subject at an angle and with Expansion turned on, the camera will focus on two different points depending upon whether it's set to AI Servo or One Shot. It will appear to "front focus" slightly in AI Servo, because the invisible point below the center one is being used. While in One Shot, only the visible center point is being used.

The only time to use Expansion Points is when shooting tough to track, moving subjects. And you will likely still have some missed focus shots, as the camera will sometimes choose the wrong point and focus on something other than what you wanted. I rarely, if ever, use Expansion on 5DII my 7Ds. I'll usually only use it when the background is a great distance from the subject or the subject is against a very plain background (such as birds in flight against the sky). By working at keeping a single point on the subject, I get better accuracy. In other words, I make the camera focus where I want it to focus, rather than leaving it up to the camera to decide.

Try turning off Expansion Points and only using the center AF point. That will give you more consistent results between the two focus modes because the camera will then function much more the same in both One Shot and AI Servo.

However, the 5DII isn't the greatest tracking moving subjects. So you should expect some misses in AI Servo, with moving subjects.

Only use the center point when shooting AI Servo, too... as it's much more sensitive than the visible peripheral points in the 5D/5DII.

Usually when I am shooting AI Servo I try to stop down a bit, to f4 or f5.6, to help improve accuracy (by increasing "forgiveness" of focus). Does it work? Well I shot nearly 2000 images last Sunday... all on AI Servo.... I've only edited about 1500 of them, but so far I've "trashed" about 15 or 20 shots for missed focus problems (I've trashed lots more for other problems). And I know a couple of those were my own fault, not the cameras'. And I know I was pushing my luck with a couple as well... shooting between obstructions or shooting really fast. (I happened to be using my 7Ds, which are much better tracking subjects... but AI Servo is AI Servo, no matter what camera we're talking about). Single point AF... center point for nearly all shots. All together, in the last six or seven weeks I've taken 17,000 shots with my 7Ds and have about 1 or 2 percent loss to missed focus. 5DII isn't quite as good, but with practice and used right can do pretty well with moving subjects (I tend to use it much more for stationary).

AI Servo looks for movement and never stops focusing... So with a static subject at times the camera will defocus and then refocus, trying to predict movement that's not happening when the subject (or photogrpaher and camera) doesn't move. So you have to expect some misses with AI Servo.... no camera is going to be perfect.

One Shot seeks focus, then when it's achieved focus, it stops and locks. It is more accurate and recommended for stationary subjects. You also get Focus Confirmation with it. One Shot cannot be used with moving subjects, unless using a pre-focus technique which is pretty limiting.

Actually, if you are looking for extremely accurate focus, switch to Live View. It's the most accurate of all... but it's quite slow.

AI Focus is pretty much worthless, sort of a snapshooter's mode. It's not really a focus mode at all. In AI Focus the camera is supposed to decide for you whether or not the subject is moving, then switch to whatever is the approptiate mode (AI Servo or One Shot). I tried working with it for a while about ten or eleven years ago (with my EOS-3s)... gave up and got far better keeper rate not using it. I haven't used it since.

So, in a nutshell... Turn off Expansion Points. It's what's causing the focus errors you are seeing. With Back Button Focusing, you should then see good results with AI Servo, but when subjects are stationary and you want to use a larger aperture, up close, with shallow depth of field where accuracy is important, I'd suggest switching to One Shot... Or Live View.


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Jun 05, 2013 23:48 |  #21

amfoto1 wrote in post #16004342 (external link)
AI Focus is pretty much worthless, sort of a snapshooter's mode. It's not really a focus mode at all. In AI Focus the camera is supposed to decide for you whether or not the subject is moving, then switch to whatever is the approptiate mode (AI Servo or One Shot). I tried working with it for a while about ten or eleven years ago (with my EOS-3s)... gave up and got far better keeper rate not using it. I haven't used it since.

I agree with your assessment, but EOS 3 didn't have AI Focus. From page 35 of the EOS 3 manual:


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amfoto1
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Jun 06, 2013 00:07 |  #22

rrblint wrote in post #16004394 (external link)
I agree with your assessment, but EOS 3 didn't have AI Focus. From page 35 of the EOS 3 manual:


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Hosted photo: posted by rrblint in
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forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras


You're right... Maybe it was the Elan 7E (EOS 33) I was using at the same time. Or maybe a later model such as 10D.

At any rate, I don't use AI Focus at all on any camera that has it.


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kin2son
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Jun 06, 2013 00:23 |  #23
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So when shooting stationary object, one shot is sharper than servo or there is no difference?

As I leave my camera on servo all the time (even for static subject), should I half press and focus, stop AF using BBF before I snap?


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Jun 06, 2013 00:48 |  #24

amfoto1 wrote in post #16004422 (external link)
You're right... Maybe it was the Elan 7E (EOS 33) I was using at the same time. Or maybe a later model such as 10D.

At any rate, I don't use AI Focus at all on any camera that has it.


Right Alan, I never use it either.

kin2son wrote in post #16004447 (external link)
So when shooting stationary object, one shot is sharper than servo or there is no difference?

As I leave my camera on servo all the time (even for static subject), should I half press and focus, stop AF using BBF before I snap?

I've never had any problems shooting stationary subjects using BBF with the "press and release" technique. However, One Shot does allow more time(a few milliseconds) for focus acquisition so is theoretically better especially in low-light situations. In practice, I haven't been able to tell any difference.


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Tommy1957
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Jun 06, 2013 01:56 |  #25

I don't know a lot about the details of the 5D AF system and its 'assist' points. I do know that AI-Focus is the bastard child of One-shot and AI-Servo. It is similar to shooting in P-mode. You are turning over one more choice to the camera, and it can only know the programmer's algorithm. It has no idea what you want. Select One-Shot or AI-Servo as needed, use BBAF and make the camera do what you want, not the other way around. AI-Focus is a nod to those upgrading from P&S. It does not belong on a DSLR any more than the silly ICON modes. OK, I'll concede that stuff on Rebels. Keep it off of the xxD and xD models, please.




  
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kcbrown
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Jun 06, 2013 04:22 |  #26

kin2son wrote in post #16004447 (external link)
So when shooting stationary object, one shot is sharper than servo or there is no difference?

It depends on the camera, actually.

On the 40D I used to have, there was a noticeable difference in reliability of nailing focus between the two modes for still objects. One shot was definitely better.

One of the reasons I went to the 50D from the 40D was that its AI servo was much more consistent in holding focus on non-moving subjects, and I prefer to use servo mode because a good implementation of it will allow the camera to account for the slight movement of the subject and/or the photographer, even when both are supposed to be "still".

As I leave my camera on servo all the time (even for static subject), should I half press and focus, stop AF using BBF before I snap?

If you're going to use BBF at all, why not just go all the way and turn off the focus function on the shutter button? Just BBF all the time. That way, you have complete control over when focus happens versus when the shutter gets tripped. This is especially useful in conjunction with lenses that have full time manual focus: you can manually focus and take the shot without having to bother to put the lens into manual focus mode.


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amfoto1
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Jun 06, 2013 15:08 |  #27

kcbrown wrote in post #16004765 (external link)
It depends on the camera, actually.

On the 40D I used to have, there was a noticeable difference in reliability of nailing focus between the two modes for still objects. One shot was definitely better.

One of the reasons I went to the 50D from the 40D was that its AI servo was much more consistent in holding focus on non-moving subjects, and I prefer to use servo mode because a good implementation of it will allow the camera to account for the slight movement of the subject and/or the photographer, even when both are supposed to be "still".

If you're going to use BBF at all, why not just go all the way and turn off the focus function on the shutter button? Just BBF all the time. That way, you have complete control over when focus happens versus when the shutter gets tripped. This is especially useful in conjunction with lenses that have full time manual focus: you can manually focus and take the shot without having to bother to put the lens into manual focus mode.

Interesting observation... I always thought the AF system on 40D, 50D and 60D was the same. But I never used 40D extensively (I went from 10D to 30Ds and then to 50Ds, and now to 7Ds... saw definite AF system changes with each upgrade.) I only briefly used 40Ds, loaners a few times.

Are you sure it wasn't a change of lenses done at the same time? For example, an STM lens is more accurate/faster focusing than a micro motor drive lens. And a USM lens is more accurate and faster than either STM or MM.

Used right, and with plenty of practice, AI Servo is pretty darned good, especially on more recent models such as my 7Ds (I see few missed focus in AI Servo with those, but only saw slightly more with 50D).

But I still think One Shot can focus more accurately than AI Servo... If nothing else there's the reassurance of Focus Confirmation that's helpful. Also, One Shot determines point of focus, then stops and locks (if you zoom or change distance from subject or subject moves, you have to remember to refocus One Shot). I'd still try to use One Shot for critical focus... or Live View, which is even better (but very slow).


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kcbrown
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Jun 06, 2013 17:26 |  #28

amfoto1 wrote in post #16006357 (external link)
Interesting observation... I always thought the AF system on 40D, 50D and 60D was the same. But I never used 40D extensively (I went from 10D to 30Ds and then to 50Ds, and now to 7Ds... saw definite AF system changes with each upgrade.) I only briefly used 40Ds, loaners a few times.

Are you sure it wasn't a change of lenses done at the same time? For example, an STM lens is more accurate/faster focusing than a micro motor drive lens. And a USM lens is more accurate and faster than either STM or MM.

Yeah, it was with the same lenses. My lens collection hasn't really changed (well, okay, it's grown, but I haven't gotten rid of any of my old lenses).

One of the lenses I observed that phenomenon with was my 24-105L, so you can't say I wasn't using good, reliable glass for the test...

Used right, and with plenty of practice, AI Servo is pretty darned good, especially on more recent models such as my 7Ds (I see few missed focus in AI Servo with those, but only saw slightly more with 50D).

This has been my experience as well. And frankly, it's how it should be. Servo is a closed loop system. It should be as accurate as one-shot in decent light. It makes sense that one-shot would be able to focus in very low light better than servo, because servo is doing double duty of focusing and tracking, and needs to be able to see the change in the distance to the target in order to track it, whilst one-shot just has to know whether or not the target is actually in focus.

But I still think One Shot can focus more accurately than AI Servo... If nothing else there's the reassurance of Focus Confirmation that's helpful. Also, One Shot determines point of focus, then stops and locks (if you zoom or change distance from subject or subject moves, you have to remember to refocus One Shot). I'd still try to use One Shot for critical focus... or Live View, which is even better (but very slow).

If focus is truly critical, there is no substitute for manual focus in live view. But between one shot and servo, unless the light demands one shot, I'd go with servo every time. With recent cameras, I've not noticed any reliability difference between the two, so I may as well gain the additional flexibility of automatic compensation for my movements and/or those of the subject...


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Luta13
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Jun 06, 2013 18:13 |  #29

I have a 6D with back button focus and use a single focus point vast majority of the time.
I dont think I have ever used One Shot. Been in AI Servo since camera's arrival. Never ever had an issue.
I also have never taken it out of Continuous Drive. I can fire one shot every time I want and if I need multiple frames I can just lay on the shutter button longer.
I think this set-up provides great flexibility.


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Jun 06, 2013 21:15 |  #30

Luta13 wrote in post #16006905 (external link)
I have a 6D with back button focus and use a single focus point vast majority of the time.
I dont think I have ever used One Shot. Been in AI Servo since camera's arrival. Never ever had an issue.

Yeah, I think Canon's figured out the servo algorithm that makes it useful for general use.

I also have never taken it out of Continuous Drive. I can fire one shot every time I want and if I need multiple frames I can just lay on the shutter button longer.

That's just because the 6D is s.....l.....o....o....​.o....o....w when it comes to bursts. :lol: Try it with a 1DX or 7D! It's hard to get just one shot with one of those.

Fortunately, they both have "6D drive emulation mode". :lol:


(I kid, by the way. The 6D represents incredible value for the money these days)

I think this set-up provides great flexibility.

It does indeed. I'm always in servo mode myself precisely because the camera works so well in it. That's true for both my 7D and my D600.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
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