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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 07 Jun 2013 (Friday) 09:19
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How much to Edit

 
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Jun 08, 2013 09:15 |  #31

CraigPatterson wrote in post #16009965 (external link)
Just the act of subbing is perfectly acceptable, but if someone has asked for you specifically, and then you sub, then that's shady.
you to do the edits.

THIS!




  
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banquetbear
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Jun 08, 2013 10:43 |  #32

drvnbysound wrote in post #16011283 (external link)
The only post the OP made regarding the edits is below:

Based on that statement alone, I have no idea how you know exactly what it is that the photographer wants. I wish I was omniscient.

...it doesn't matter whose edits it is. Ever play chinese whispers? The client can't communicate directly with the person doing the edits: this adds a potential for error that didn't exist before. And even worse, the client doesn't even know someone else is editing their work. The client hasn't had the opportunity to vet this vendor to ensure they meet its quality standards.

Yes, I do see it as mouse clicking when we are talking about delivering the same final product.

Well editing isn't just mouse clicking. And photography isn't just button pushing. Just like being a surgeon isn't just playing with knives and being a lawyer isn't just talking.

Editing is a skill. And it is a skill that most photographers will only outsource to people they trust. Sometimes they will outsource to an editing company like evolve because they have evaluated their work and determined that they suit their requirements. But a subcontractor who subcontracts without informing his client is just being plain nasty.

I've never suggested that the OP try a new editing style, or ask anyone else to either.

What you've suggested is the OP outsource work that has been outsourced to them.

So, I don't see how that is any different than the person who asks me to deliver ice, or the contractor whom I've hired to build my workshop. The final product of each scenario is exactly what the client is asking for. The final product here isn't a singular masterpiece, it's the editing of 800 images.

Put five photographers into a room and tell them to take a picture of a model and you will get five different looking pictures of the model. Now lets give these same five photographers an image: and then lets give them a sample image and exact editing instructions and you will still likely get five different looking images. Now do the same thing: but send the image to the other side of the world, have the client not be able to communicate with the person doing the editing and have the editing instructions only sent via check boxes and emails and the editing will be even more different.

The final product IS NOT THE SAME. In the ideal world they may well be close to the same: but you can't guarantee it, so stop pretending it would be. I think what you are really saying is that you, personally, couldn't tell the difference, is that fair?

I've carried ice and I've edited a wedding. I learnt how to carry ice when I was about one years old and its a skill I haven't really had to relearn. Its taken two years of training, practice and six month of schooling to get my editing skills to where they are now. To compare carrying ice to editing a wedding is absurd.

Regarding the middleman business, here is what you stated:

Your words, "it would be silly to try and make it work."

Silly me. I tried to look through this thread looking for me saying the words you have in quotes: and I realize that the words you claim are my words are not actually my words.

I stated that your proposed business model was not valid and you would be silly to try and make it work. My words were pretty clear and if you didn't understand them well hopefully you do now. I didn't say the "middleman business model" doesn't work. And your quote proves that.

I never suggested that someone seek this (subcontracting photographic work) entirely as a business model.

I never suggested you did.

I've already located the editing company. The only additional time now is for the edits to be performed. Again, if I knew NOTHING about the field in question and had no idea who to go to I would feel differently, as I mentioned engine repair earlier.

So what do we know about Evolve?

First impressions: they are using the Deep Focus theme (external link)from Elegant Themes with almost zero customization. I know the theme quite well as it was my first website theme: but they've put no work into it at all. I mean seriously, look at this (external link). It looks like it was designed by a 10 year old.

Its run by Sal Cincotta: but unlike his other three websites he's practically invested no money (external link) on this one. The blog hasn't been updated since July last year. Here's the deal of the month: well, okay, the deal of the month this time last year. (external link) The facebook page has had two posts in the last five months.

I'm curious: why have you selected evolve as your editing company? And how would you justify your choice if the original photographer ever found out?

You see: it isn't just about "choosing" an editing company. The original photographer is probably wanting to see examples of the work as you go, and maybe even giving you advice on how they want things changed. Uploading 800 images alone will take a bit of bandwidth that isn't cheap everywhere: and it will take over eight hours to upload. Unless you send in a hard drive: which would either mean you send in and risk the original photographers hard drive or you've got to purchase your own seperate hard drive and risk sending that.

If I had found out you had sent my work to that site without my permission you would have a lawsuit on your hands. My clients entrust me with the privacy and security of their images. I can vett my subcontractors, I can make my subcontractors sign my confidentiality agreements, I can even explain to my clients that I work with photographer xxx who helps me with my editing process. But I can't vett subcontractors I don't know exist.

I don't know how many photographers are subcontracting to other photographers, but that's what has happened here.

But it is NOT WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. You are suggesting the subcontractor subcontracts.

The wedding photographer has asked the OP to perform edits - that is subcontracting.

Well duh. Can you point out anyone who has an issue with that?

You are suggesting the subcontractor subcontracts the work. That is entirely different to what the OP has been asked to do.

If the original photographer had been smart about it she would have got the quote before shooting the wedding, so she could have rolled that subcontracting into her quote to the bride. Unfortunately (for her), if the OP comes back at a higher than expected price, it will begin cutting into her margins.

Are you for real? And you accused me of trying to be omniscient?

It is likely the original photographer has rolled subcontracting into her quote because that is what businesses do. If the OP quotes too high then the original photographer will shop around until they get the right price. But what the original photographer won't factor in is cost over-runs if things go pear shaped. If the edit comes back all wrong: then someone has to bear the cost of the re-edit and it won't be the original photographer.


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drvnbysound
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Jun 08, 2013 12:19 |  #33

banquetbear wrote in post #16011524 (external link)
Well editing isn't just mouse clicking. And photography isn't just button pushing. Just like being a surgeon isn't just playing with knives and being a lawyer isn't just talking.

Are these teachable trades? Yes.

If I told you how I edited my images you could do it the same way. Sure, I may crop an image differently or make a different adjustment, but overall the work can be replicated - more so with provided presets and actions.

If this wasn't feasible, how would anyone use an editor other than themselves?

banquetbear wrote in post #16011524 (external link)
But it is NOT WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. You are suggesting the subcontractor subcontracts.

My first suggestion was to use Evolve or other as a basis for pricing. Secondly was the idea to sub to Evolve, IF the OP wasn't able to complete the work himself. Yes, some could also choose to provide that information directly to the photographer - personally, I'm not providing vendors to my local competition, and if they want to pay me to do their work, I'm going to take the money they offer. At the end of the day the reason I'm in business is to make money, not to help others make it.

banquetbear wrote in post #16011524 (external link)
You are suggesting the subcontractor subcontracts the work. That is entirely different to what the OP has been asked to do.

Did the request specifically state that the OP was required to personally perform the edits? If so, I missed this.

banquetbear wrote in post #16011524 (external link)
It is likely the original photographer has rolled subcontracting into her quote because that is what businesses do. If the OP quotes too high then the original photographer will shop around until they get the right price. But what the original photographer won't factor in is cost over-runs if things go pear shaped. If the edit comes back all wrong: then someone has to bear the cost of the re-edit and it won't be the original photographer.

If the photographer had rolled subcontracting into her original quote, she wouldn't be asking for a price after the shoot. Yes, she may have rolled what she thought it might cost, but doing so would not be a good business decision. Providing a client with a quote to complete work that you don't know the cost of is silly.

Similarly, (back to my workshop analogy) it came to pass that I knew the guy who was subcontracted to do the concrete work. He had provided the prime contractor a price to perform the work. In the end, it took almost 1/3 more concrete that he had estimated. Who loses that money? He does. He provided a price to perform a job and that's what he got paid. The prime isn't going to say, sorry that you quoted wrong, here's some more money to cover your expenses. I (the client) am not paying any more either - that's why I have an quote for completion.

Likewise, I doubt the wedding client is going to provide more money to the photographer if the subcontracting of the editing is going to cost more.


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banquetbear
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Jun 08, 2013 17:53 |  #34

drvnbysound wrote in post #16011691 (external link)
Are these teachable trades? Yes.

If I told you how I edited my images you could do it the same way. Sure, I may crop an image differently or make a different adjustment, but overall the work can be replicated - more so with provided presets and actions.

...so in simpler words: you agree with me that editing is not just mouse clicking.

If this wasn't feasible, how would anyone use an editor other than themselves?

Subcontracting wedding edits is a common practice.

Your recommendation: secretly subcontracting subcontracting wedding edits is not.

There are several reasons: already pointed out to you, as to why it is not common practice.

My first suggestion was to use Evolve or other as a basis for pricing. Secondly was the idea to sub to Evolve, IF the OP wasn't able to complete the work himself. Yes, some could also choose to provide that information directly to the photographer - personally, I'm not providing vendors to my local competition, and if they want to pay me to do their work, I'm going to take the money they offer. At the end of the day the reason I'm in business is to make money, not to help others make it.

And several people said that sub sub contracting would be a bad idea. And you asked why, and we told you why. If your business is in the business to make money being deceitful is not the way to do it. If you are in the business to make money then adopting a business model where you make maybe twenty bucks for several hours of work and open yourself up to all sorts of liability is not the way to do it.

Did the request specifically state that the OP was required to personally perform the edits? If so, I missed this.

If the original photographer wanted an editing company to do the edits: they would have contacted an editing company.

Do you think editing companies are some sort of secret that only you have heard of? Some sort of special business that only those with a secret handshake can get access to? So secret that if the original photographer asked you "hey, did you send my clients images unsecured over the internet to a group of people I had never heard of" you would refuse to tell him where you sent it?

Editing companies are not a secret thing. If someone chooses to approach a local photographer to do their edits: its because they want the local photographer to do their edits.

If the photographer had rolled subcontracting into her original quote, she wouldn't be asking for a price after the shoot.

Rubbish. Most people build in all sorts of contingencies to their prices. Are you still assuming things?

Yes, she may have rolled what she thought it might cost, but doing so would not be a good business decision. Providing a client with a quote to complete work that you don't know the cost of is silly.

But you've forgotten: the original photographer's son was kidnapped, and won't be released until after the images are edited!!! How did you expect them to quote a price if they didn't know their son was going to be kidnapped, hmmmm?

Similarly, (back to my workshop analogy) it came to pass that I knew the guy who was subcontracted to do the concrete work. He had provided the prime contractor a price to perform the work. In the end, it took almost 1/3 more concrete that he had estimated. Who loses that money? He does. He provided a price to perform a job and that's what he got paid. The prime isn't going to say, sorry that you quoted wrong, here's some more money to cover your expenses. I (the client) am not paying any more either - that's why I have an quote for completion.

Likewise, I doubt the wedding client is going to provide more money to the photographer if the subcontracting of the editing is going to cost more.

Boy oh boy you've missed my point badly: and you've proven my point yet again.

I'm talking about cost over-runs caused by the SUB SUB CONTRACTOR ENGAGED BY THE SUBCONTRACTOR ENGAGED BY THE WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER HIRED BY THE CLIENT.

Guess who has to pay for the over-run? You guessed it, the sub contractor, not the wedding photographer.

Guess who looses the money? You do. The wedding photographer is not going to provide more money to the photographer if the sub sub contracting of the editing is going to cost more.

You seem to completely forget that the subcontractor has engaged a subsub contractor every time you make a point: and try to treat it as a simple subcontract: which is not what you are suggesting.


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Jun 08, 2013 18:22 |  #35

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16010676 (external link)
It really isn't that hard to provide 800. I do it week in week out.

And your clients don't feel overwhelmed?


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Jun 08, 2013 18:38 |  #36

mclaren777 wrote in post #16012409 (external link)
And your clients don't feel overwhelmed?

Nope not in the slightest. They love it and so do their families. Why would they feel overwhelmed at getting more memories from their special day?


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charro ­ callado
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Jun 08, 2013 18:51 |  #37

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16012442 (external link)
Nope not in the slightest. They love it and so do their families. Why would they feel overwhelmed at getting more memories from their special day?

As a wedding photographer that has almost completely crossed over to the dark side (video) I often get the opportunity to chat with my clients privately about their photographer; time and time again I hear that the 800-1000 range is indeed overwhelming - especially when it's time to order prints, select images for an album, etc. When you go beyond that - to 1500+ - couples actually get irritated because it's no longer a service with which they have been provided - it's an obligation, or worse: a burden. YMMV, but this is what I hear directly from them. The people who are usually the most ecstatic about their photographer tend to receive 300-400ish. I should actually start keeping track formally, now that I think about it.

If you just like to shoot a lot of frames, do what I do. I average 17,280. :cool:




  
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memoriesoftomorrow
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Jun 08, 2013 19:10 |  #38

charro callado wrote in post #16012467 (external link)
As a wedding photographer that has almost completely crossed over to the dark side (video) I often get the opportunity to chat with my clients privately about their photographer; time and time again I hear that the 800-1000 range is indeed overwhelming - especially when it's time to order prints, select images for an album, etc. When you go beyond that - to 1500+ - couples actually get irritated because it's no longer a service with which they have been provided - it's an obligation, or worse: a burden. YMMV, but this is what I hear directly from them. The people who are usually the most ecstatic about their photographer tend to receive 300-400ish. I should actually start keeping track formally, now that I think about it.

If you just like to shoot a lot of frames, do what I do. I average 17,280. :cool:

I average shooting 1500 at a wedding culling to around 750-800 on average.

I don't sell prints (never have). There is no chore for clients as they don't need to make a monetary decision as to what to have printed with me.

I pre-design the albums which are 80 printed pages and contain between 150-250 pictures generally. 80% of clients make no changes at all to the pre-design as they want it as I've designed it. There is no burden there as I do the work for them (part of the service).

As for the "rave factor" my clients love it going by the reviews I get (on my website).


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How much to Edit
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