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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 14 Jun 2013 (Friday) 20:24
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Sigma 35 vs Canon 35L - QC Issues

 
TheLensGuy
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Jun 18, 2013 07:42 |  #121
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mileslong24 wrote in post #16041509 (external link)
I find it perplexing that you aren't willing to spend a little time in post fixing an easy issue but you're willing to spend countless hours complaining about it. To say 100 sigmas are sent back for every canon is a ridiculous statement. While I admit I have only purchased one sigma (30 1.4) it worked flawlessly with no MA.

Let me ask for the 30th time, how about the under exposed shots, how are they fixed automatically as this lens seems to under expose by 1/3, 2/3, or even full stop at times? And the under exposed shots do look dark to the point where my 65 year old mother comes and says "son, did you forget to use the flash, its too dark" - this did happen last night when she was looking at the BBQ pictures from Sunday.

I think you guys are so into the "sharpness" that no matter what faults this lens has, you are always going to ignore them.




  
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smythie
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Jun 18, 2013 08:17 |  #122

TheLensGuy wrote in post #16041634 (external link)
Let me ask for the 30th time, how about the under exposed shots, how are they fixed automatically as this lens seems to under expose by 1/3, 2/3, or even full stop at times? And the under exposed shots do look dark to the point where my 65 year old mother comes and says "son, did you forget to use the flash, its too dark" - this did happen last night when she was looking at the BBQ pictures from Sunday.

I think you guys are so into the "sharpness" that no matter what faults this lens has, you are always going to ignore them.

Seems to me that it is you who is so into the sharpness of this lens that you have held onto it and bang on about the lens so much. Given your earlier complaints and the fact you already have a 35L there was no reason to continue on with this - you should have returned the Sigma and stuck with the Canon.

Or are you enjoying trying to whip up drama?


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TheLensGuy
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Jun 18, 2013 08:25 as a reply to  @ post 16041666 |  #123
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Test Run 1

Sigma:

Original:

http://img203.imagesha​ck.us/img203/8151/v2ip​.jpg (external link)

Post Processed with Sigma 35mm 1.4 Profile From Lightroom 5:

http://img689.imagesha​ck.us/img689/8924/0ve3​.jpg (external link)

Canon:

Original:

http://img17.imageshac​k.us/img17/1561/75u6.j​pg (external link)

Now look at the right bottom corner of each picture here:

Sigma:

http://img855.imagesha​ck.us/img855/2807/9sc.​jpg (external link)

Canon:

http://img109.imagesha​ck.us/img109/8672/whq6​.jpg (external link)

Two things to note here:

Note : The focus point is the "Little People" text

1) The barn doors is extremely blurry. This is something I had noticed before with my other Sigma lenses but I hadn't really tested it until now with this one. The focus point with sigma lenses are in focus, but the corner of the frames get very blurry.

2) Now that post processing has happened with the Sigma lens profile, as suggested by people here, there is so much noise on the blue doors (and in other areas of the picture as well - the blue doors is used here as a sample).

Comments?

PS: I have another test run, if this is not sufficient in any shape of form, I will post that as well in a similar manner.

I will return the lens, there is no question, I just want others to see what I see which I believe may help them with their decision of selling their 35L and buying this lens.




  
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kin2son
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Jun 18, 2013 08:38 |  #124
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Are you seriously telling me that this lens will underexpose randomly under a controlled environment with consistent lighting?

Whilst I agree this lens tends to underexpose by 1/3 of a stop when shot wide open, it's consistent and things improve significantly if you stop down as little as half a stop.

I bet you were shooting under light changing environment which you didn't adjust the settings accordingly and blame everything on the lens.

Also I bet you are shooting wide open all the time, thus all these silly complaints.

Like I said before, if underexpose and vignette bothers you that much, just stop down a little? It isn't going to break your shot mate ;)

Oh and your comment about people only cares about sharpness, sorry I don't shoot wide open all the time like you do, and by f1.8 onwards, the Sigma has none of your so called problems yet it's a hell lot sharper. Not to mention it has tons of microcontrast which some believe exceeds the Zeiss 35 and gives that amazing 3D pop.

I take the Sigma any day. Go return yours, it doesn't affect me and ain't my loss :p


5D3 Gripped / 17-40L / Σ35 / 40 Pancake / Zeiss 50 MP / Σ85 / 100L Macro / 70-200 f2.8L II IS / 430 EX II / 580 EX II / Canon 2xIII TC / Kenko Ext. Tubes
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TheLensGuy
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Jun 18, 2013 08:45 |  #125
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kin2son wrote in post #16041766 (external link)
Are you seriously telling me that this lens will underexpose randomly under a controlled environment with consistent lighting?

Whilst I agree this lens tends to underexpose by 1/3 of a stop when shot wide open, it's consistent and things improve significantly if you stop down as little as half a stop.

I bet you were shooting under light changing environment which you didn't adjust the settings accordingly and blame everything on the lens.

Also I bet you are shooting wide open all the time, thus all these silly complaints.

Like I said before, if underexpose and vignette bothers you that much, just stop down a little? It isn't going to break your shot mate ;)

Oh and your comment about people only cares about sharpness, sorry I don't shoot wide open all the time like you do, and by f1.8 onwards, the Sigma has none of your so called problems yet it's a hell lot sharper.

I take the Sigma anyday.

* I am shooting wide open - why else would I use a 1.4 prime. If I want to "stop down", I'd use my 24-70 II. I put up with the inconvenience of the prime so that I can use it wide open. I apologize, but your argument is just ridiculous. If you are also claiming that if I stop down to 2.2, I won't see a difference (i.e. it won't break my shot), you are sadly mistaken.

* I did not change the lighting conditions in any way in these pictures. I was standing still, picking up lenses from a table on my left, putting them on, and taking the pictures. This was my living room, and it's bright day light outside, there is no changing light.

* Can you please comment on my previous post with pictures, especially the ones that show the blurriness and noise in the bottom right corner of the Sigma lens? What do you think about the OOF area? What about the noise?

You need to stop saying "I would take Sigma any day", that's quite obvious since you made that choice and you already have the Sigma:)

Let's stop arguing and focus on the pictures please? I really would like to know what you guys think.

Thanks.




  
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kin2son
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Jun 18, 2013 08:56 |  #126
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TheLensGuy wrote in post #16041788 (external link)
* Can you please comment on my previous post with pictures, especially the ones that show the blurriness and noise in the bottom right corner of the Sigma lens? What do you think about the OOF area? What about the noise?

I won't comment on the blurriness as that can be due to a lot of factors, handholding being one.

Test it on tripod and if it's blurry 10 out of 10 at the exact same spot, then there might be a problem.

Btw find some better test subject please.

Noise is clearly due to the vignette, and as you pp it, you have to push the shadows. As we all know, Canon sensor is simply crap at doing that and noise in shadows is a norm with Canon's DSLR.

Yes it vignette wide open, so dial in EC by +1/3 of a stop if you plan to shoot wide open all the time? Problem solved. Simple as that.

Oh you don't need to stop down to f2.2, f1.8 is more than enough ;)


5D3 Gripped / 17-40L / Σ35 / 40 Pancake / Zeiss 50 MP / Σ85 / 100L Macro / 70-200 f2.8L II IS / 430 EX II / 580 EX II / Canon 2xIII TC / Kenko Ext. Tubes
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DamianOz
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Jun 18, 2013 09:23 |  #127

Received my Dock this morning, so I spent the past 10 hours testing my S35, with TheLensGuy's, findings in mind.

Firstly, the Vignetting is evident and constant, I hadn't laken much notice in the past, in LR, I have lens correction set to apply when I import. No need to do any extra steps in PP.
I do not have the 35L to compare, so any comparisons are with my 24-70ii.
However i did play with the LR's Lens correction profile for the 35L, according to the Adobe profiles, Sigma does have a slightly darker vignetting in the very corners.
However, the difference between the two profiles is very minor, check it for your self. load a even colour image and switch profiles.
IMO, the issue of vignetting is mute, I could see no ill effect from the default correction at any variations in exposure combinations and lighting.

Now on to the interesting tests.
Prior to any Dock adjustments, I wanted to be certain of what values to change.
I used my 6D for this test, then after adjustment, re AFMAed the 5D3 also.
The focal distances tested were as per Sigma's image in the software, 0.3m, 0.4, 0.8, ∞. (figures are rounded estimates, I set the distances as per the image).

Firstly I used FoCal software, then DotTune method. both these methods showed a similar pattern, however the results did not determine the same MA values at each focal distance. Both methods were repeat 2 more times, Focal showed lest variation, but both methods left me a little uncertain, with variations of +2 points at any distance. So I thought I will try another method.
I used a steel rule attached to my test target tripod, tilted to approx. 45˚
In this method, I took photos of the target, viewed on the rear LCD at X10. Then adjusted the AFMA to shift the center of the focus field to the focus point mark.
The results were dissimilar to that of the previous methods. So I moved the target and camera to various location, inside and out, tested the same focal distance with the determined AFMA setting. Every shot was consistent, or with in 0.25mm at worst. As this methods is preformed in the same way the camera would be used in real shooting situations, and proved to be most consistent, I proceeded to adjust the lens using the Dock. The following values. -5, -3, -5, -1 used. (note, the -1 setting for ∞ was determined by the first two testing methods, as I did not have materials to make a larger target at such a long focal distance, however the DOF is much greater allowing a very broad setting range with little to no effect on the image).
After flashing the new settings to the lens, I confirmed again with the 6D's AFMA set to 0.
Although it is now dark, focus around the house proved to be spot on, with the target and other subjects. I tested 34 shots at random distances (using tripod/remote), all were spot on focus.

I then set up the 5D3 and determined an AFMA of +2, I didn't tests as extensively, however 6 random shots proved to be fine.

So why was the Ruler method so much more curate?
Simple, the camera AFMA points are not linear, moving one point often moved the focus in the wrong direction with respect to points either side, when testing with the ruler at 0.3m (12") f/1.4, and the target at 45˚, the DOF is about 5mm, about the size of the focus point square in the view finder. This enables very accurate visual judgment of where the camera/lens focused. The other methods use an averaging method, open to error with non linear AFMA points.

May be some thing to consider if your finding focus drift.

I later tested the 20-70ii at 24mm 35mm and 70mm, unfortunately, this lens does vary slightly with different focal distances, not enough to put the focused point out of the field of focus, and being f/2.8 wide open, the DOF isn't as thin either, so its quite acceptable and less critical.

I didn't test exposure consistency, I was shooting in Manual mode with Auto ISO, so will leave that for another day.

Conclussion:
My Sigma lens does not drift focus to any degree near close enough to put the focal point out of the focus field, the few shots that appeared shifted was extremely slight, and could possibly be caused by shutter vibration.
Stock, it was no different to Canons latest L lens with similar FL (although a zoom, sorry I didn't have the 35L to compare). Tuned it is acutely accurate.
TheLensGuy is correct about vignetting, but IMO its not even closely as drastic as made out.
Sharp, you bet, I thought my 24-70ii was very sharp, its not as sharp as the S35.


Bodies - Canon EOS 5DIII | EOS 6D
Primes - TS-E24 f/3.5L II | Σ 35mm F1.4 DG Art | EF 85 f/1.2L II | EF 135 f/2L
Zooms - EF 16-35 f/2.8L II | EF 24-70 f/2.8L II | EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II | Σ 24-105mm F/4 DG OS Art | Σ 120-300mm F/2.8 DG OS Sport

  
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snake0ape
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Jun 18, 2013 09:47 |  #128

DamianOz wrote in post #16041913 (external link)
Received my Dock this morning, so I spent the past 10 hours testing my S35, with TheLensGuy's, findings in mind.

Firstly, the Vignetting is evident and constant, I hadn't laken much notice in the past, in LR, I have lens correction set to apply when I import. No need to do any extra steps in PP.
I do not have the 35L to compare, so any comparisons are with my 24-70ii.
However i did play with the LR's Lens correction profile for the 35L, according to the Adobe profiles, Sigma does have a slightly darker vignetting in the very corners.
However, the difference between the two profiles is very minor, check it for your self. load a even colour image and switch profiles.
IMO, the issue of vignetting is mute, I could see no ill effect from the default correction at any variations in exposure combinations and lighting.

Now on to the interesting tests.
Prior to any Dock adjustments, I wanted to be certain of what values to change.
I used my 6D for this test, then after adjustment, re AFMAed the 5D3 also.
The focal distances tested were as per Sigma's image in the software, 0.3m, 0.4, 0.8, ∞. (figures are rounded estimates, I set the distances as per the image).

Firstly I used FoCal software, then DotTune method. both these methods showed a similar pattern, however the results did not determine the same MA values at each focal distance. Both methods were repeat 2 more times, Focal showed lest variation, but both methods left me a little uncertain, with variations of +2 points at any distance. So I thought I will try another method.
I used a steel rule attached to my test target tripod, tilted to approx. 45˚
In this method, I took photos of the target, viewed on the rear LCD at X10. Then adjusted the AFMA to shift the center of the focus field to the focus point mark.
The results were dissimilar to that of the previous methods. So I moved the target and camera to various location, inside and out, tested the same focal distance with the determined AFMA setting. Every shot was consistent, or with in 0.25mm at worst. As this methods is preformed in the same way the camera would be used in real shooting situations, and proved to be most consistent, I proceeded to adjust the lens using the Dock. The following values. -5, -3, -5, -1 used. (note, the -1 setting for ∞ was determined by the first two testing methods, as I did not have materials to make a larger target at such a long focal distance, however the DOF is much greater allowing a very broad setting range with little to no effect on the image).
After flashing the new settings to the lens, I confirmed again with the 6D's AFMA set to 0.
Although it is now dark, focus around the house proved to be spot on, with the target and other subjects. I tested 34 shots at random distances (using tripod/remote), all were spot on focus.

I then set up the 5D3 and determined an AFMA of +2, I didn't tests as extensively, however 6 random shots proved to be fine.

So why was the Ruler method so much more curate?
Simple, the camera AFMA points are not linear, moving one point often moved the focus in the wrong direction with respect to points either side, when testing with the ruler at 0.3m (12") f/1.4, and the target at 45˚, the DOF is about 5mm, about the size of the focus point square in the view finder. This enables very accurate visual judgment of where the camera/lens focused. The other methods use an averaging method, open to error with non linear AFMA points.

May be some thing to consider if your finding focus drift.

I later tested the 20-70ii at 24mm 35mm and 70mm, unfortunately, this lens does vary slightly with different focal distances, not enough to put the focused point out of the field of focus, and being f/2.8 wide open, the DOF isn't as thin either, so its quite acceptable and less critical.

I didn't test exposure consistency, I was shooting in Manual mode with Auto ISO, so will leave that for another day.

Conclussion:
My Sigma lens does not drift focus to any degree near close enough to put the focal point out of the focus field, the few shots that appeared shifted was extremely slight, and could possibly be caused by shutter vibration.
Stock, it was no different to Canons latest L lens with similar FL (although a zoom, sorry I didn't have the 35L to compare). Tuned it is acutely accurate.
TheLensGuy is correct about vignetting, but IMO its not even closely as drastic as made out.
Sharp, you bet, I thought my 24-70ii was very sharp, its not as sharp as the S35.

+1. Did same things. And same conclusions. Only differences is my MA is 4,6,3, 0. 0 was a fine ma for me, but the dock made the close focal distances crazy sharp.


5Diii | 50D | 8-15L 4| 16-35L 2.8 II| 24-70L 2.8 II | 70-200L 2.8 IS II |Tamy 150-600 | Σ35Art 1.4 | 40 2.8 | Σ50Art 1.4 | 85L 1.2 II | 100 2.8 Macro | Helios 44-3 58mm f2.0 |Helios 40-1 85mm f1.5 | 1.4x & 2x teleconverters

  
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cdang
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Jun 18, 2013 10:51 |  #129

How much is this USB dock and is it buy one for all sigma lens ?




  
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smythie
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Jun 18, 2013 10:58 |  #130

60USD typically. Only need to buy one for use on all lenses that will work with it. Not many lenses so far from what I can tell.


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DamianOz
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Jun 18, 2013 11:02 |  #131

I paid AUD $60 plus $10 shipping, check retailers in your country, most I have seen have been around the USD $80 or so.

The Doc is only for the new generation of lenses


Bodies - Canon EOS 5DIII | EOS 6D
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cdang
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Jun 18, 2013 11:14 |  #132

Thanks guys. Not too bad for us Aussies.




  
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Charlie
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Jun 18, 2013 11:34 |  #133

smythie wrote in post #16041710 (external link)
Seems to me that it is you who is so into the sharpness of this lens that you have held onto it and bang on about the lens so much. Given your earlier complaints and the fact you already have a 35L there was no reason to continue on with this - you should have returned the Sigma and stuck with the Canon.

Or are you enjoying trying to whip up drama?

bw!

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TheLensGuy
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Jun 18, 2013 18:07 |  #134
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DamianOz wrote in post #16041913 (external link)
I didn't test exposure consistency, I was shooting in Manual mode with Auto ISO, so will leave that for another day.

You definitely should, it's a big problem with this lens. The exposure is very inconsistent.

DamianOz wrote in post #16041913 (external link)
TheLensGuy is correct about vignetting, but IMO its not even closely as drastic as made out.

I am not "making anything out", I have posted pictures, real pictures and I am not making any claims and this is not "he said she said". Look at my pictures, and make your own decision. If you shoot low light wide open with this lens, as I do a lot, the noise in the corners after PP to fix vignetting becomes unbearable. I usually shoot 1/125, 1.4, 3200 ISO at home at night. If I fix vignetting with PP, the corners reach to some very high levels of noise, cannot quantify, but I'd say they look like as if I shot the picture ISO 8000 or 10000.

DamianOz wrote in post #16041913 (external link)
Sharp, you bet, I thought my 24-70ii was very sharp, its not as sharp as the S35.

Sigma's lenses are always "sharp". Their 50mm is sharper than 50L and their 85mm is sharper than 85L II. That doesn't mean their lenses are better. I am not going to say anything else, but you get it:)




  
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Charlie
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Jun 18, 2013 18:18 |  #135

hey lens guy, can you do corner correction on the 35L @ISO3200 F1.4 vs S35 @ISO3200 F1.4 and post results?

Apples to apples comparison


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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Sigma 35 vs Canon 35L - QC Issues
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