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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 16 Jul 2013 (Tuesday) 17:21
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5D III DR Increased to 14 stops via Magic Lantern?

 
titi_67207
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Jul 17, 2013 08:13 |  #16

Lowner wrote in post #16127727 (external link)
I need to see it before I comment. Strikes me as odd that Canon have not played around with it themselves and if they have, then what's the snag?

+1, they must employ the Magic Lantern guys for the next firmware ;)


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Jammin606
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Jul 17, 2013 08:41 |  #17

The D800 is a direct competitor to the 5D3, often praised for it's improved DR. If Canon had enabled dual ISO, it seems to me that the 5D3 would have immediately been able to better compete with the D800.




  
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magwai
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Jul 17, 2013 09:07 as a reply to  @ post 16127496 |  #18

This is very interesting. It will give us a glimpse of what I really hope Canon are doing with their next gen sensor - per pixel dynamic ISO.

I am sure there will be pros and cons but if they make it a choice rather than the only way to take shots there will be some cases where it produces great results, I hope at least.




  
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RHChan84
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Jul 17, 2013 10:21 |  #19

Canon should hire the ML guys to work on their next software. just imagine the possibilities.


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Shadowblade
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Jul 17, 2013 10:30 |  #20

magwai wrote in post #16127975 (external link)
This is very interesting. It will give us a glimpse of what I really hope Canon are doing with their next gen sensor - per pixel dynamic ISO.

I am sure there will be pros and cons but if they make it a choice rather than the only way to take shots there will be some cases where it produces great results, I hope at least.

I hope so - they were mentioning that as a possibility years ago. To go with that, the obvious next step beyond column-parallel A/D conversion is per-pixel A/D conversion.

OTOH, given Canon's current priorities, it would seem more likely that they'll use increased resolution and individual pixel control to read off photosites in sequence, to give quadruple the video frame rate. In other words, instead of reading every pixel for each frame, it'd read every fourth pixel for each frame, alternating the photosites read so that, for instance, each photosite could be exposed for 1/25 of a second, but, because only a quarter of the photosites are being read every frame, the overall frame rate could be 100fps...




  
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Jul 17, 2013 11:25 |  #21

So which ISO do you use for setting your shutter speed? 100 or 1600? As I understand it, they are telling one set of amplifier lines to amplify at 100 ISO (which may be a factor 1.0 if ISO 100 is the base) and the other set (part of the sensor hardware and functional invocation) to go to 1600.

So ML should allow a new function that says "Expanded DR" and the value there is like an exposure offset, you set a slider and it acts as an ISO offset from whatever your current ISO is. This way you could play with ISO 400 and set this slider to ISO 12800 if you wanted to, or set it to 800. The owner can play and decide which values give them the necessary results.

If the sensor hardware supports this, and the firmware has a way to send 2 different ISO values during the exposure, then I don't see how this ML change could really impact anything negatively on the camera.


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ilumo
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Jul 17, 2013 11:41 |  #22

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16128378 (external link)
So which ISO do you use for setting your shutter speed? 100 or 1600? As I understand it, they are telling one set of amplifier lines to amplify at 100 ISO (which may be a factor 1.0 if ISO 100 is the base) and the other set (part of the sensor hardware and functional invocation) to go to 1600.

So ML should allow a new function that says "Expanded DR" and the value there is like an exposure offset, you set a slider and it acts as an ISO offset from whatever your current ISO is. This way you could play with ISO 400 and set this slider to ISO 12800 if you wanted to, or set it to 800. The owner can play and decide which values give them the necessary results.

If the sensor hardware supports this, and the firmware has a way to send 2 different ISO values during the exposure, then I don't see how this ML change could really impact anything negatively on the camera.

Agreed. but this takes time. and who knows of the algorithms for base iso/1600 iso are going to be the same for different iso sets.
What I hope is that canon gets a whiff of this and decides to do this inhouse...


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watt100
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Jul 17, 2013 11:41 |  #23

delhi wrote in post #16128329 (external link)
The 5d3's high ISO is superior to the D800 in stills and for sure video. Also it does not have the same moire issues that the D800 seems to exhibit.

I'm always fascinated with ML's breakthroughs. This one is interesting. But there are some caveats though. Still I applaud them for innovation!

yeah, the 5D3 is the king of ISO performance. Magic Lantern is doing some interesting things with software enhancements




  
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Shadowblade
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Jul 17, 2013 11:46 |  #24

watt100 wrote in post #16128427 (external link)
yeah, the 5D3 is the king of ISO performance. Magic Lantern is doing some interesting things with software enhancements

Actually, the 1Dx is the king of ISO performance, but it loses a few megapixels.

What lets Canon down badly is its off-chip A/D conversion. Their sensors are fine - the fact that they do better at super-high ISOs suggest that the base sensor design is actually better, and should beat the Exmor if A/D conversion were equal - but the antiquated A/D conversion system introduces so much read noise and pattern noise that the DR curve completely flattens out below ISO 800 or so, and doesn't catch up to the Exmor until around ISO 3200.




  
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Jul 17, 2013 12:56 |  #25

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16128378 (external link)
So which ISO do you use for setting your shutter speed? 100 or 1600? As I understand it, they are telling one set of amplifier lines to amplify at 100 ISO (which may be a factor 1.0 if ISO 100 is the base) and the other set (part of the sensor hardware and functional invocation) to go to 1600.

I guess you use the camera as if you had ISO 100. ML then base the image on ISO 100 but maps in the data from the ISO 1600 pixels for the dark parts of the image.

It is interesting that besides the greatly reduced amount of noise, the ML-decoded video shows richer colors.

No - this change is probably not dangerous to the camera. But anyone who hacks own firmware just have to warn the users. The biggest dangers to the cameras is probably the camera owner - but the camera owner will still blame ML if something fails with the camera with or without ML:s fault.


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Jul 17, 2013 13:06 as a reply to  @ post 16128617 |  #26

watt100 wrote in post #16128427 (external link)
yeah, the 5D3 is the king of ISO performance.

I had thought that the 6D had slightly better ISO performance than the 5DIII.


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Jul 17, 2013 14:10 as a reply to  @ post 16128726 |  #27

The 70D pretty much ends the debate on whether Canon innovates (for those that think the definition of innovation is creation). But, even so, as proven by Apple many times - it's the second rat that gets the cheese.


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Jul 17, 2013 14:30 |  #28

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16128378 (external link)
So which ISO do you use for setting your shutter speed? 100 or 1600? As I understand it, they are telling one set of amplifier lines to amplify at 100 ISO (which may be a factor 1.0 if ISO 100 is the base) and the other set (part of the sensor hardware and functional invocation) to go to 1600.

So ML should allow a new function that says "Expanded DR" and the value there is like an exposure offset, you set a slider and it acts as an ISO offset from whatever your current ISO is. This way you could play with ISO 400 and set this slider to ISO 12800 if you wanted to, or set it to 800. The owner can play and decide which values give them the necessary results.

If the sensor hardware supports this, and the firmware has a way to send 2 different ISO values during the exposure, then I don't see how this ML change could really impact anything negatively on the camera.

That is approximately how it works. You set the base iso the way you normally would without magic lantern and then there is an option for the Dual ISO module where you select the extended ISO and it estimates how much extra dynamic range you'll get based on the base and extended ISO that are selected.


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pwm2
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Jul 17, 2013 14:32 |  #29

gjl711 wrote in post #16128726 (external link)
Inovation and improvement are two different things. THough I don't agree with the first poster that Canon has stagnated, far from it, but they have really been lacking in inovation the last couple years. Your examples are really good ones that show that Canon is moving things forward and improving their product line but none are really inovations.

The 100mm lens is just their old one with IS attached and a red ring painted on the front. It's a great improvement but far from being innovative.

No, it isn't just a 100mm with IS. It was the introduction of the new hybrid IS needed for using the lens at short distances where you don't just need to worry about rotational shake.

4-stop IS is just an improvement to 3-stop IS and IS in lenses was not a Canon innovation but a Nikon one. They were first to market with in lens IS.

Yes, it is just an improvement. But a non-trivial improvement. Lots of heavy engineering (and not unlikely a patent or two hidden in there) work to actually manage. And definitely not a "follow the pack" by looking at the competition.

The 7D focus system is a huge improvement to the ancient 9 point system Canon has been using pretty much forever but again, it's an improvement, not an innovation and done in response to Nikon including their 51 point AF in consumer grade cameras.

The good thing with good innovations is that you don't notice the innovation. It's just that the complexities to make the 7D focus is enormous. Luckily, the end users don't need to know exactly what complexities that are involved to get it to work in different light, with different lenses and at different distances/zoom levels.

THe list goes on and on. Sensor cleaning was first introduced by Olympus I believe. Micro Focus adjustment I believe was Nikon. The flippy screen in an SLR was Nikon. DSLR video was Nikon.

Look at cars. All have safety belts, etc and are practically the same. But look into the individual black boxes inside the cars, and there are huge numbers of innovations that the owner doesn't know about. No one does implement things the same way.

I think that's what the poster was saying. Canon tends to follow market trends and rarely lead the pack with true innovation. The new 70D sensor clearly is an exception.

Most of the functionality in Canon cameras are top-of-the-class, or very close to. But Canon have completely different reasons to select what to do, than we as users might sometimes want. But that isn't lack of innovation. But at Canons market position, there is no need to take too much economic risks by testing the market with random stuff. It's enough to implement and put in a drawer until later needed. So lots of patents that doesn't end up in cameras now. But might do five years from now.


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Jul 17, 2013 14:39 |  #30

gjl711 wrote in post #16128726 (external link)
The 100mm lens is just their old one with IS attached and a red ring painted on the front. It's a great improvement but far from being innovative.

4-stop IS is just an improvement to 3-stop IS and IS in lenses was not a Canon innovation but a Nikon one. They were first to market with in lens IS.

That's a bit silly, Canon invented an IS system that actually works at macro distances. All the other macro lens IS systems work fine at portrait distances but are useless at macro distances.


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