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Thread started 08 Dec 2012 (Saturday) 04:28
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7D mkII. What do you think the specs and price will be?

 
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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 07, 2013 18:45 |  #196

jwcdds wrote in post #16189269 (external link)
I have no problems with the 7D2 using the 70D sensor. I do not plan to shoot landscape with it (certainly not its primary function) nor in low-light. It would be relegated to action and wildlife photography where accurate AF tracking and high fps would be of importance.

20.2mp sensor is already equivalent to a 51.7mp FF sensor density. I wouldn't expect it to do worse than the current crop of 18mp sensors but I certainly won't kid myself into thinking it'll be much better either. :lol:

Most of my shooting is 'action' based, but I have occasion to wish for a cleaner high iso, that is all. I gather that the 70D is a small improvement in this area.

But I wonder what could be developed if the research budget was purely aimed at the stills market? Obviously the money Canon make is in no small amount due to their DSLRs video performance, but I don't care two hoots for video (get more than enough of it in my day job :( )


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Aug 07, 2013 18:52 |  #197

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189475 (external link)
I do understand the meaning of the word 'rumour' but as it is the only information we have for this thread to even exist, I was expressing my views on the said rumour. I am fed up with the amount of investment, research and features appearing on DSLRs that pertain to the shooting of video. I want the money and time to be spent on my next stills camera. I would like the videographers to finance the next generation of there own recording equipment. I do understand that the research for recording an image will be along similar lines, regardless of whether it be a single frame or multiple ones shot in a sequential manner, but I don't want. it.

Sadly until Canon make me chief executive of the department titled 'What Amanda wants in her next camera' and gives me a mega budget to go with the new position, I have to make do with shared sensors with a camera I consider to be inferior. As I have alluded to previously, the engine in a Honda might be a little gem, but I don't want it in my Ferrari.

You must have realized long ago that any camera company's goal is to find ways to sell as many cameras as possible. Combining video and stills opens the potential for both amateur videographers and photographers alike to buy the same equipment, therefore reducing production lines and ultimately costs.

What is it about Canon's sensors that you feel is inferior to your stills photography needs?


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Aug 07, 2013 18:56 |  #198

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189478 (external link)
Most of my shooting is 'action' based, but I have occasion to wish for a cleaner high iso, that is all. I gather that the 70D is a small improvement in this area.

But I wonder what could be developed if the research budget was purely aimed at the stills market? Obviously the money Canon make is in no small amount due to their DSLRs video performance, but I don't care two hoots for video (get more than enough of it in my day job :( )

Sadly, I do not believe there will be any leaps-n-bounds improvement on high ISO department. It's a matter of physics. Take it from me, someone who has been chasing the cleaner high-iso game... I've poured a lot of cash into the endeavor, only to discover that while shooting RAW, I can realistically only see a 1.5 (maybe 2-stop on a good day) improvement between the 7D high (circa 2009) ISO vs. the 1DX (circa 2012).

Your hopes of cleaning high ISO won't happen going down the APS-C path. And even by going FF, the the improvements are all relatively.

Pixel-density + ramping up the sensitivity for high iso = noise.


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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 07, 2013 18:59 |  #199

jwcdds wrote in post #16189491 (external link)
You must have realized long ago that any camera company's goal is to find ways to sell as many cameras as possible. Combining video and stills opens the potential for both amateur videographers and photographers alike to buy the same equipment, therefore reducing production lines and ultimately costs.

What is it about Canon's sensors that you feel is inferior to your stills photography needs?

I think it's more to do with the expectation of the next 7D. I got mine from having a 40D and in the time I've had the 7D the 40D has gone through 50-60-70D. So after what will be probably 5 years wait, I hoped for another show stopper, something that would help my inferior abilities to capture a better moment. But with the shift to video being such a prevalent part of the feature set, I feel a little neglected.

I have no doubt the mkII will be a better camera, but I want it to be easily the best crop sensor camera out there (at least that Canon makes) with noticeably, the best IQ. I love my 7D and it does most things as well, or even better than I had hoped for, but I think we all dream that the magic panacea of better IQ will come from that mysterious little rectangle that attracts fluff (well mine does....that doesn't sound like some weird euphemism does it?)


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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 07, 2013 19:05 |  #200

jwcdds wrote in post #16189497 (external link)
Sadly, I do not believe there will be any leaps-n-bounds improvement on high ISO department. It's a matter of physics. Take it from me, someone who has been chasing the cleaner high-iso game... I've poured a lot of cash into the endeavor, only to discover that while shooting RAW, I can realistically only see a 1.5 (maybe 2-stop on a good day) improvement between the 7D high (circa 2009) ISO vs. the 1DX (circa 2012).

Your hopes of cleaning high ISO won't happen going down the APS-C path. And even by going FF, the the improvements are all relatively.

Pixel-density + ramping up the sensitivity for high iso = noise.

In the Audio game, noise used to be a major problem inherent in the recording chain (I started on 1/4" recording at 15ips :D) but once digits came in and they eventually got it to work (most of the time) things have improved beyond all measure-well almost. I think I thought DSLRs would continue to do the same over time and just keep improving at really fast rate. Perhaps I just want the moon.........please :)


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Aug 07, 2013 20:38 |  #201

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189478 (external link)
...But I wonder what could be developed if the research budget was purely aimed at the stills market?.....but I don't care two hoots for video ...

Ditto.. If I want video, I shoot with a camera optimized for video.

jwcdds wrote in post #16189491 (external link)
.... Combining video and stills opens the potential for both amateur videographers and photographers alike to buy the same equipment, therefore reducing production lines and ultimately costs.

What is it about Canon's sensors that you feel is inferior to your stills photography needs?

Combining the two as you sayopen the market for more potential customers however, Canon seems to have totally abandon the still shooter and put all their eggs in the video basket. There really has been no improvement in their image quality in several years.

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189504 (external link)
I think it's more to do with the expectation of the next 7D. ...... So after what will be probably 5 years wait, I hoped for another show stopper, ..... But with the shift to video being such a prevalent part of the feature set, I feel a little neglected....

Same here. I still have my 5DMkII, why, because the MkIII and the 6D are so close in IQ that it makes no sense to upgrade. If the 7DII comes out as nothing more than a 70D with a few pumped up features, again, there is no reason to upgrade as from what i have seen the IQ of the 70D is really no better than the 5 year old 7D.


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Aug 07, 2013 21:21 |  #202

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189475 (external link)
I do understand the meaning of the word 'rumour' but as it is the only information we have for this thread to even exist, I was expressing my views on the said rumour.

Sorry, did not mean to suggest you are misinterpreting anything CR is reporting. To me, a rumor starts with the engineer who actually knows what's going on. From there, it travels up or down a chain of people to 'the source', and then on to the journalist who eventually reports it.

Each step in the chain involves a description and each step it gets redescibed. By the time CR prints something, it's several generations aways from the original information, full of interpretation and misimplication. My suggestion was (and is) to imagine past the final description to what might be actually going on, free of the spoon fed limitations of CR.

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16189475 (external link)
I am fed up with the amount of investment, research and features appearing on DSLRs that pertain to the shooting of video. I want the money and time to be spent on my next stills camera. I would like the videographers to finance the next generation of there own recording equipment.

I've seen numerous posts with the same sentiment, that canon is coddling video at the expense of stills. While it may be the case, it doesn't seem likely to me. The very measure of all this angst is an unnecessary risk, trying to get new customers at the very real risk of loosing current ones. Businesses aren't zero sum, with new customers requiring abandonment of old. When both are ready to pay, you develop for both, growing into new markets and holding fast to those you worked so hard to get the first time around. They can afford to invest into two major areas at the same time.

Having said that, I don't know canons fab situation, but it feels like they've invested themselves into a corner, sensor wise. Like Sony and Fuji have or rent newer fabs and can push sensor limits and canon is stuck. Payments on the old fab are still due and they can't afford to have it idle and they don't need enough sensors from both that fab and a new fab. But they can make split pixel sensors with the old sensitivity. So they do, not because they hate or ignore still customers but because they don't have a choice.

But you do. You can change to another system with better ISO and hang out for a few years while canon gets caught up. And you won't have to feel betrayed because it seems like they aren't investing in your priorities any more. BTW, I've been 'video capable' for 3 years, and have shot barely as many videos. I'm in the same boat. There are ways to get better sensor performance. Waiting is just one of the options.


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Aug 08, 2013 02:18 |  #203

I originally bought my t2i because I like to travel and it can take nice images along with 1080p 30fps video. It was also my first DSLR and I figured I would try it out because it's the only way I will truly know what I actually need in a camera.

While there's some situations where I could probably have both a video camera and a camera for pictures, there's many situations where having one camera (with video capabilities) and a proper walk around lens allows me to take both pictures and video (e.g while on a small boat in the middle of a jungle) without having to pack a lot of equipment.

I know there are people who are absolutely infuriated about canon putting video capabilities into their camera's instead of focusing solely on improving image quality in their photo's etc. However, there are people like me who like having both picture and video capabilities in the DSLR and purchase these DSLR's because they can do both. Secondly, how can you be sure that canon spending money on improving video capabilities, is at all, in any capacity, taking away from improving their picture taking abilities?

On one hand you can argue that they should put all of their $ into improving IQ and $0 on video, but on the other hand you must admit that profit isn't maximized if it isn't for having the video capabilities in the camera's and people like me spending $ on products because the camera's do have video capabilities.

I think Canon needs to improve both IQ and video capabilities in their camera's. I thought the "improvements" between the t2i --> t3i etc.. were an absolute joke.. however those were annual improvements. Based on the rumors the 7D and 7DMKII are going to be 5 years removed from each other. There better be significant upgrades or else why would people spend big $ to upgrade their camera's? There's a reason why I haven't upgraded yet. If Canon wants people's hard earned $, they're going to have to earn it by improving their camera's enough to entice people into spending $ on them.


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Aug 08, 2013 08:50 |  #204

Occasionally I see the 7D as the second or third string camera being used by a pro snapper at a sporting event, but mainly I see the 7D in the hands of us amateur enthusiasts. Which leads me to ask, who on earth is shooting all this video? It seems to be the Emperors New clothes of the DSLR world. Ok, I see the 5D occasionally being used to add colour or brief interviews in a studio type setup, doing similar work to what previously was done by 16mm film cameras. But they have all these jigs, rigs, motors and the usual amount of lights for a film shoot, in fact they seem to have more bits and pieces to do what film cameras did naturally. The finished effect is extremely good though, I have to say.

But and it is a big but (no jokes please :D) I have never seen anyone shooting video with a 7D/xxD/xxxD. I realise some must, it just I never see them. I am lucky enough to work at some of the greatest and most important sporting and cultural events and yet, even though many of the spectators possess nice DSLRs, they choose to shoot any video on there phones. Why? Convenience I assume and also ease of handling. Therefore I assume that apart from a dedicated few (probably many members on here) who can get to grips with the gear, I feel it is nothing more than a cynical marketing move to cash in on the fact that a sensor can do more than one thing. I think it goes like this....


Salesman: "...and of course you will be able to record Emily's wedding in glorious High Definition and the quality will be even better than it would be if it was recorded by a television crew"
Wife: "you hear that darling, just think, we can immortalise dear Emily's wedding and you can have total control over which bits we want to see"
Husband: "Great I'll take one of those 7Ds and some big lenses as well, especially the long zoom ones, you know,the ones the pros use!"
Salesman: "would you like that wrapped sir?" .....

Fade to black and back up to scene in kitchen. Post wedding...


Husband: "Well it wasn't my ruddy fault, that camera is ridiculous to shoot with"
Wife: "you didn't have to make it so shaky though"
Husband: " You felt the weigh of it? holding at arms length to see that stupid little tv screen and when we went outdoors I couldn't see a flippin' thing"
Wife: "Well your video compilation wasn't much better anyway"
Husband: " Don't even get me started on that stupid editing programme you bought from the market, it damn near melted my laptop. It's never run right since"
Wife: "Well we still saved lots of money on getting a pro in to shoot it"
Husband: "We did and we have the satisfaction of knowing it was all our own work. now pass me that jam so I can coat the wedding DVD with it and feed it to the dog. That will gives us an excuse so Emily wont be to cross at us for the quality of the video.....cough cough"

OK I'm a cynic :)


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Aug 08, 2013 09:57 |  #205

Reider wrote in post #16190456 (external link)
Secondly, how can you be sure that canon spending money on improving video capabilities, is at all, in any capacity, taking away from improving their picture taking abilities?..

Because there has been almost no improvement in 5 years for still shooters at least when IQ is concidered. There have been a plethora of really nice features, but mostly geared towards video.

It would be interesting to replace the 7D in camera jpeg processor with the one used in the 70D. I'm guessing the final image will be practically identical.


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Aug 08, 2013 11:19 |  #206

gjl711 wrote in post #16191134 (external link)
Because there has been almost no improvement in 5 years for still shooters at least when IQ is concidered. There have been a plethora of really nice features, but mostly geared towards video...

Which might be a clue as to where Canon believes there is money to be made.


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Aug 08, 2013 11:28 |  #207

RTPVid wrote in post #16191350 (external link)
Which might be a clue as to where Canon believes there is money to be made.

Yup..


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Aug 08, 2013 17:21 |  #208

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16190996 (external link)
Which leads me to ask, who on earth is shooting all this video?

But and it is a big but (no jokes please :D) I have never seen anyone shooting video with a 7D/xxD/xxxD. I realise some must, it just I never see them. I am lucky enough to work at some of the greatest and most important sporting and cultural events and yet, even though many of the spectators possess nice DSLRs, they choose to shoot any video on there phones. Why? Convenience I assume and also ease of handling.

There's definitely people making video's with their DSLR's. Obviously not everyone is and the people who do aren't always making video's when they have their DSLR's on them. If you don't think people use DSLR's for video, take a look around YouTube and other sites.


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Aug 08, 2013 17:24 |  #209

gjl711 wrote in post #16191134 (external link)
Because there has been almost no improvement in 5 years for still shooters at least when IQ is concidered. There have been a plethora of really nice features, but mostly geared towards video.

It would be interesting to replace the 7D in camera jpeg processor with the one used in the 70D. I'm guessing the final image will be practically identical.

I don't disagree with you. But I do want to point out that it's not just improved video features (and updated lenses) they've been improving / adding to their camera's. They've been improving AF, adding things like HDR, Wifi, GPS, and the list goes on and on. I feel the same way everyone else does about this issue, which is why I haven't upgraded my camera at all yet. I wish they would improve IQ as well. The difference between some other people and myself is that I want Canon to upgrade IQ in both picture and video, while some people in this thread want video banned from Canon DSLR's altogether. :)


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Aug 08, 2013 17:46 |  #210

Reider wrote in post #16192391 (external link)
There's definitely people making video's with their DSLR's. Obviously not everyone is and the people who do aren't always making video's when they have their DSLR's on them. If you don't think people use DSLR's for video, take a look around YouTube and other sites.

I can only comment on what I have seen and I have never seen anyone who is not a professional, shooting video on DSLR. I shoot a bit of video and use either my S4 phone or my Powershot compact and that seems typical of the vast majority of You Tube postings too (other makes and models are available)

I see DSLRs being used all the time at work and this year a 5D did an enormous amount of 'pretty' and 'cool' video recordings at the World Snooker finals, Wimbledon and The Open. Often after a football (soccer) match I see interviews being done (rather badly it has to be said) with DSLRs plonked on a tripod. But no amateurs out and about seem to bother, hence why I wonder why all the investment in video for the 7D XXD and XXXD models

Maybe they just avoid me :D


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