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Thread started 29 Aug 2013 (Thursday) 02:54
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DxO assess the Canon 70D's sensor performance

 
SpartanWarrior
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Aug 29, 2013 17:58 |  #76

1Tanker wrote in post #16251395 (external link)
And there you go.. the equipment is affecting your photography.. negatively. You have to alter your image... settle, as it were. And they say that equipment doesn't matter? ;)

NO it's not affecting my photography, there are plenty of waterfalls where you do not need the sky in the frame, Example why would I include this sky

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when it looks much better this way
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Hogloff
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Aug 29, 2013 18:05 |  #77
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Canon_Lover wrote in post #16251474 (external link)
I really makes me cringe every time I read someone who makes sweeping generalizations of "landscape" photography. There are many types of landscape photography and many different skill levels. It's just as silly as saying a camera is X and Y good at shooting people! Is that people who are sitting for portraits? People on motorbikes? People playing sports? Quite a different sort of criteria for each I would say!

It seems people who shoot landscapes for a hobby can sometimes be the worst offenders in putting themselves on some level of pedestal as the end-all be-all authority on what defines landscape photography and what equipment works for their blanket assumptions about landscape photography. I think it borderlines excessive arrogance in some cases.

There are landscape photographers who shoot nothing but night scenes 99% of the time like our resident Todd Lambert and value only high ISO performance.

There are photographers who shoot in nothing but mid-day sunlight under the harshest conditions.

There are photographers who shoot in nothing but sunset and sunrise.

There are photographers who shoot in desert rocks, which don't move in the wind.

There are photographers who shoot landscapes out of airplanes, helicopters, or boats.

There are photographers who use extensive levels of focus stacking where many exposures are mandatory.

If you're gonna complain about something a camera does or doesn't do, then at least have the sensibility of adding the qualifier, "for my style and skill level". There are guys who never touch anything below ISO 800 for landscapes. There are guys who can bracket any scene and make it work without fail every time.

:shock::shock:

And there are people who shot landscapes with Velvia film ( me ) that had extremely little dynamic range. So your point is?

Ask anyone of those landscape shooters if they'd rather have more or less dynamic range and then come back with the answer. I know what my answer would be...how about you?

Oh...and by the way, people used to shoot with low ISO film using flash...why do we need high ISO sensors. People used to shoot sports in single shot mode, why do we need 10fps? People used to manually focus all the time, why do we need AF?

Get the picture....pun intended.




  
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Hogloff
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Aug 29, 2013 18:07 |  #78
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SpartanWarrior wrote in post #16251493 (external link)
NO it's not affecting my photography, there are plenty of waterfalls where you do not need the sky in the frame, Example why would I include this sky
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when it looks much better this way
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But what if a certain composition looked better with the sky and towering trees. You would skip it because your camera would not handle it?




  
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SpartanWarrior
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Aug 29, 2013 18:35 |  #79

Hogloff wrote in post #16251514 (external link)
But what if a certain composition looked better with the sky and towering trees. You would skip it because your camera would not handle it?

Well your right sometimes you might want the sky in the image, maybe take a meter reading off the sky then underexpose 2 stops, actually you can raise the shadows on canon 2 stops and then highlight slider in ACR to bring down the highlights for the sky if needed that might work don't you think?


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Charlie
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Aug 29, 2013 18:39 |  #80

JoYork wrote in post #16249677 (external link)
Which is why I specifically mentioned the ISO points:

http://www.dxomark.com …2)/792%7C0/(bra​nd2)/Nikon (external link)

when both are resized to 8MB. I played with the raws, and the high ISO of the 6D isnt a whole lot better if even that, when the D800 resized to the same size.

That's just how you do apples to apples comparisons.


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Hogloff
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Aug 29, 2013 18:51 |  #81
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SpartanWarrior wrote in post #16251587 (external link)
Well your right sometimes you might want the sky in the image, maybe take a meter reading off the sky then underexpose 2 stops, actually you can raise the shadows on canon 2 stops and then highlight slider in ACR to bring down the highlights for the sky if needed that might work don't you think?

Raising shadows in Canon land quickly raises noise. Been there done that. With the D800, I would be very comfortable under exposing by 3 stops and raising in post.




  
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brettjrob
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Aug 29, 2013 19:48 |  #82

Hogloff wrote in post #16251632 (external link)
Raising shadows in Canon land quickly raises noise. Been there done that.

Agreed. It is somewhat disingenuous when Canon fans say things like, "Nikon only has another stop or two of DR; how often does that really matter?" The problem is that even before any kind of "threshold" is reached regarding DR measurements, the shadows get dirty and noisy if lifted much at all. Even the mid-range shadows don't like much lifting without heavy NR. This is particularly true if you're dealing with a very smooth subject like clouds. If you're always shooting relatively complex subjects with fine detail, I can see where it would be slightly less an issue.


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Hogloff
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Aug 29, 2013 19:58 |  #83
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brettjrob wrote in post #16251743 (external link)
Agreed. It is somewhat disingenuous when Canon fans say things like, "Nikon only has another stop or two of DR; how often does that really matter?" The problem is that even before any kind of "threshold" is reached regarding DR measurements, the shadows get dirty and noisy if lifted much at all. Even the mid-range shadows don't like much lifting without heavy NR. This is particularly true if you're dealing with a very smooth subject like clouds. If you're always shooting relatively complex subjects with fine detail, I can see where it would be slightly less an issue.

Oh, but it is the fine details in the shadows that turn to mud with Canon sensors. Lifting them does cause ugly noise, applying noise reduction turns those nice fine details to mush. It's a losing battle.

I usually end up trying to blend multiple exposures and hope fine details between exposures have not moved...which is not the case most times. GND filters are very limited in their use once you move away from flat ground or the sea. Get into the mountains and they basically become useless, or at the very least, lead to a lot of post processing trying to lighten up parts of the image that was unintentionally covered by the filter.




  
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amfoto1
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Aug 29, 2013 23:19 |  #84

Hogloff wrote in post #16251275 (external link)
GND only really works when your transition zone is basically a straight line. How do you deal with say shooting a waterfall in dense foliage along with the sky peering through some tall cedars? There is no GND filter in this world that will rescue your shot...the sky will be blown out.

Patience. Wait until the time of day when the contrast is more favorable, or come back on an overcast day. That's how we handled it with slide film, much of which had about the same dynamic range as a 5DII or III.

Or, multiple exposure. One for the waterfall and trees, the other for the sky. Then marry the two images together in post production. It would only be a problem if there were wind moving the trees. Then a bit more patience might be needed, awaiting the breeze to stop.

But I agree with another point, too... often the sky is an overly distracting element in deep woods/waterfall type shots. Might be better to recompose avoiding the sky in the shot, if possible

If we have 8 stops of dynamic range right now, and a future sensor from Canon improves that to 10 stops, it's a sure bet we'll be out finding 12 and 14 stop scenes where the DR of the camera can't handle it, and coming back here to gripe about it!

Go shoot a roll of Velvia sometime.... 50 ISO, 7 or 8 stops of DR. It's gorgeous stuff, but a PITA! It sure will make you appreciate what you've got in your 5DIII.


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Hogloff
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Aug 29, 2013 23:31 |  #85
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amfoto1 wrote in post #16252280 (external link)
Patience. Wait until the time of day when the contrast is more favorable, or come back on an overcast day. That's how we handled it with slide film, much of which had about the same dynamic range as a 5DII or III.

Or, multiple exposure. One for the waterfall and trees, the other for the sky. Then marry the two images together in post production. It would only be a problem if there were wind moving the trees. Then a bit more patience might be needed, awaiting the breeze to stop.

But I agree with another point, too... often the sky is an overly distracting element in deep woods/waterfall type shots. Might be better to recompose avoiding the sky in the shot, if possible

If we have 8 stops of dynamic range right now, and a future sensor from Canon improves that to 10 stops, it's a sure bet we'll be out finding 12 and 14 stop scenes where the DR of the camera can't handle it, and coming back here to gripe about it!

Go shoot a roll of Velvia sometime.... 50 ISO, 7 or 8 stops of DR. It's gorgeous stuff, but a PITA! It sure will make you appreciate what you've got in your 5DIII.

So the lack of DR is forcing major compromises. Now wouldn't it be just great if we had a sensor with a little more DR so we would need to compromise a little less.

By the way, I broke my teeth in photography shooting Kodachrome so don't try lecture me about going to shoot some Velvia. I think I know what I am talking about.




  
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Aug 29, 2013 23:48 |  #86

I rarely get involved in these arguments, but guys -- the topic here is the 70D. The competition from Nikon is the D7100. *IF YOU MUST CONTINUE THIS DIALOGUE OFF TOPIC OF THE THREAD* then let's see what the 70D *can do* and where it falls short, and compare it to the D7100, not a D600 or D800 - -those interested in the 70D aren't likely to be looking in those price levels.

And PLEASE remember that DR is only *A PART* of the equation here -- there are other factors to consider in those DxO results -- DR isn't the only factor in a sensor. SO -- PLEASE stop comparing both Canon's higher line (5DIII, 6D) and Nikon's higher line (D600, D800) cameras in a 70D thread -- there are other threads for you guys to go.

Instead please bring your expertise and experience down to these lower layers where both the D7100 and the 70D are "below" this high level camera line discussion. Thanks -- and looking forward to some civilized and meaningful insight -- what can we expect the 70D to be limited by (the actual DR limits here), and harder for those that are so in love with the Nikon line -- what GOOD THINGS can the we expect also from the 70D in this part of the camera's feature set???. Please?




  
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Rittrato
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Aug 29, 2013 23:54 |  #87

JoYork wrote in post #16249921 (external link)
According to DXO, the Sony RX1 has better ISO performance than the Canon 6d, and some THREE TIMES better performance than the 7d!

http://www.dxomark.com …3)/619%7C0/(bra​nd3)/Canon (external link)

Its because it does. I own both the 6D and RX1 and the files from raw RX1 files are on another level to be quite honest.




  
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lsquare
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Aug 30, 2013 02:54 |  #88

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16250270 (external link)
That isn't really fair, the sensor is actually quite amazing considering what they have done with it to revolutionize the AF framework without harming the existing ISO, DR, and shadow processing. It is a brand spanking new sensor design, and also with their latest patent filing here in August, there could be some interesting things in the works for DR and shadow processing.

I didn't say that Canon didn't made any improvements to its cameras or to its sensors. AF itself is a separate topic. You know exactly what I was referring to. At the end of the day, there can be no denying that in terms of sensor performance, the 70D barely edge out the 60D.




  
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lsquare
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Aug 30, 2013 02:56 |  #89

2n10 wrote in post #16250321 (external link)
So if you find the Canon sensor to so inferior why haven't you gone Nikon?

Now you're just making a stupid comment for the sake of making a stupid comment.

I have owned both Canon and Nikon DSLRs in my lifetime. Ultimately I'm sticking with Canon because Dual Pixel AF is a feature that will really benefit me. I also love Canon's f/4 range of L lens. Nikon doesn't have that. Just because I'm complaining about Canon's inferior sensors (it's an indisputable fact) doesn't mean that I think their cameras are crap.




  
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lsquare
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Aug 30, 2013 03:01 |  #90

Tmuussoni wrote in post #16250611 (external link)
Come on guys, what's wrong with you? No need for such rude personal attacks. And there is absolutely no need to get so defensive here. I am 100 % behind with Hogloff here. The advantage which Sony/Nikon has with the Exmor sensor over Canon is impressive. If you actually tried fooling around with RX1/D800/D600 RAW files you would know what I mean. The ability to pull back shadows without any banding is impressive. Breathtakingly so. And I consider myself not a fanboy of Canon nor Nikon. I like all brands, sizes and shapes. Canon is the number #1 market leader. They have the advantage of market leader status. It kinda reminds of mobile phone markets from few years back. I am referring to Nokia, who once was clearcut number #1 market leader. But what happens when you hold back too much on technological innovation? You loose. Apple and Samsung came along. And here we are today.

But this does not mean that they (Canon) should hold back when it comes to development of low ISO sensor perfomance and other things. And as a landscapist, I consider low ISO perfomance the most important thing in sensor performance. There has not been any significant progress here for the last 5-6 years with Canon sensors. It is our jobs as customers to push Canon back onto the track. I am still fully confident that Canon will release new sensor technology next year with a new megapixel 5D III follower (3D?) and things will get better here. But it's not going to happen if we don't speak up!

And yes, it is really expensive to switch to Nikon once you are so heavily invested into Canon like I am. What a silly question....

Switching systems in general is a terrible idea. What happens when Canon comes out with the next big thing? Sell my Nikon gear to go back to Canon? It becomes a vicious cycle. I'm ok if Canon sensors aren't #1, but it should be competitive with Nikon/Sony's sensors. A 2 stop difference in DR between the 70D and the D7100 is just ridiculous.

As for the 3D, it's not a follow up to the 5D MK III. The 5D MK III's successor will be the 5D MK IV.




  
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DxO assess the Canon 70D's sensor performance
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