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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 20 Sep 2013 (Friday) 13:29
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Pekka
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Sep 22, 2013 07:37 |  #46

MikeFairbanks wrote in post #16314685 (external link)
1. Why would they? If they have the ability to get here, they aren't going to learn much from us. Any learning they do would be like us studying ant colonies. Sure, we do it, but it's not a big deal.

What makes you think all civilizations produce identical results and all planets are identical? I think what makes us interesting is arts, music, incredibly complex social interactions and rules, war and peace and reasons for them, languages, races, DNA, fauna and the planet resources itself.

2. If aliens have visited us, why would they hide from us? They can't possibly be afraid. They can travel through interstellar space, so our tiny technology is no threat to them.

Any intelligent race knows that to study means non-interference. The very moment they announce that we are studying you means you are not the same any more.

3. If they have visited, and our government knows, how is it that they kept it such a good secret? I guess they aren't as inept as we thought they are. Personally, I've never thought our government was that good at things, especially military. Sure, they can win on brute force, but efficiency is not their thing. You say you saw an alien? Fill out the proper paper work in triplicate and run it up the chain of command.

http://www.disclosurep​roject.org/ (external link)

4. Why do they visit farms in Iowa or little towns in the desert? I always figured they were civilized and would visit educated places like Yale in New Haven, Connecticut or Princeton, Harvard, etc.

Arrogant to think that someone in Harward is more worthy to study and interact with than a farmer in Iowa. There are tons of sightings in largest cities in the world.

5. We can catch a photo so detailed that we see the sweat drip off the nose of a quarterback at the superbowl, but Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, and aliens get blurry black and white photos. Not fair.

You know the answer to that. On Superbowl there are 1000 cameras ready to point in certain direction. Taking a photo of something that passes by needs a camera that is ready to shoot, you looking into that direction and to overcome initial rush of thoughts "what is going on". I saw an unidentified strange device hovering on my way to work few years ago, and only after I lost sight of it I started thinking about getting my cameraphone ready, my two professional cameras and long lenses were at home.

Take a photo of a car accident happening. Those happen every day 1000 times. It's easy to be on the right spot with right equipment and timing, right?

It makes for great film and literature, but the painful truth is that we're alone.

So you say, fine if it makes you feel good.


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Tiberius
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Sep 22, 2013 08:07 |  #47

breal101 wrote in post #16315755 (external link)
The question is how do we know it's a huge undertaking for them. We don't know who they are let alone know what they know. To me it's a given that material craft with exceptional performance characteristics are flying around in our atmosphere. Beyond that we can only speculate. Are they aliens who use wormholes to travel the vast distances? Are they beings from another dimension who are somehow able to blink in and out of our dimension through some sort of portal? Are they a combination of the two?

Well, as I said, they either came here through some kind of FTL drive or not. If not, then they took several years at least to get here and another several years to get back home. Probably decades. So, yes, that would certainly constitute a huge undertaking for them.

Some people speculate they may have been here for millennia and live on secret bases here on earth, under the sea, on the moon, on mars. I certainly don't know but the possibilities are endless and some we may not even be able to imagine.

Just because there are possibilities, does not mean all possibilities should be equally weighted. The TV remote is on the floor when I wake up in the morning, despite the fact I left it on the coffee table. I come up with two possibilities. The cat jumped up and knocked it off during the night. Or there are magical elves who have parties on the table, and they just forgot to put the remote back when they'd finished. Oh, and their parties can't be heard by Humans. Two possibilities, but that doesn't mean that both possibilities are just as likely as each other. It's not a 50/50 choice. It's more like a 99.999999999999999/000​0000000000001 chance.

As to whether they have an interest in us, who knows, it may be they have an interest in the water or minerals here on earth and we're just a sideshow.

Unlikely. Any minerals found on Earth could be found anywhere else in the universe. Even those that we create artificially. After all, if they are so far in advance of us they can build interstellar spaceships, then surely they can make the same weird elements as us.


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breal101
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Sep 22, 2013 08:28 |  #48

Tiberius wrote in post #16315836 (external link)
Well, as I said, they either came here through some kind of FTL drive or not. If not, then they took several years at least to get here and another several years to get back home. Probably decades. So, yes, that would certainly constitute a huge undertaking for them.

You're still using our logic to explain what some unknown race may do. For them a trip to earth may be just like you or I taking a trip to the grocery store.

Just because there are possibilities, does not mean all possibilities should be equally weighted. The TV remote is on the floor when I wake up in the morning, despite the fact I left it on the coffee table. I come up with two possibilities. The cat jumped up and knocked it off during the night. Or there are magical elves who have parties on the table, and they just forgot to put the remote back when they'd finished. Oh, and their parties can't be heard by Humans. Two possibilities, but that doesn't mean that both possibilities are just as likely as each other. It's not a 50/50 choice. It's more like a 99.999999999999999/000​0000000000001 chance.

Unlikely. Any minerals found on Earth could be found anywhere else in the universe. Even those that we create artificially. After all, if they are so far in advance of us they can build interstellar spaceships, then surely they can make the same weird elements as us.

Earth could be just an oasis in the desert of space. Sure, they can get things elsewhere but we may just live on the nearest convenience store. A one stop shop.

Numerous sightings involve UFOs sitting over a body of water with a beam extending down to the water. A tractor beam? Who knows? That's my point, we can't know what we don't know. Putting our understanding of the physical world into the mix is really pointless, theirs could be entirely different.


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iowajim
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Sep 22, 2013 08:57 |  #49

I've chimed in with a couple posts that were hopefully seen as humorous by both camps, but here's my angle.

The best of science fiction takes a modicum of scientific theory and expounds on it, to its logical conclusion, long before the actual science catches up. Evidence: the Nemo, a nuclear powered submarine in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, invented in writing before submarines and before nuclear power was invented. Or landing on he moon. Or leaving our planet. Or flying. Or communicating with wrist video phones (OK, not mainstream, but think video cell phones).

In many ways such conjecture is a key element of discovery, i.e. a target to focus our study upon, or as Covey wrote, begin with the end in mind. Or as Joe Jackson sang, you can't get what you want 'til you know what you want.

OK, so on to life that did not originate on Earth. The science fiction community focuses on such life forms from our own perspective, creating a caricature if you will, to magnify our own issues for greater scrutiny. Interesting, but not necessarily relevant to the true contemplation of alien life, as this is too far rooted in our own perspective. I imagine it is easier to succeed with dreams of devices that do not exist rather than to dream of cultures that do not suffer the human condition. I suspect that this is because we do not yet have any scientific information that suggests any other such culture for which to extrapolate on.

So what are we to believe then? I am certain that we do not know everything about everything just yet. To me, that means that I cannot rule out the possibility of life from another planet but it doesn't mean that it exists, either. And the arguments that suggest a government conspiracy is covering up the proof are unconvincing, you know, "well all the physical evidence that would prove my point is being held at a secret government installation so naturally there is no physical evidence even thought they've been living here for 1,000,000 years".

More interesting to me is that most of us (including myself) believe that we are surrounded and assisted by post-physical-life beings under the direction of an omnipotent being to help us avoid the efforts of another nearly omnipotent but evil being, but the thought of alien life is ridiculous. Go figure.


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sandpiper
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Sep 22, 2013 09:32 |  #50

Tiberius wrote in post #16315836 (external link)
Well, as I said, they either came here through some kind of FTL drive or not. If not, then they took several years at least to get here and another several years to get back home. Probably decades. So, yes, that would certainly constitute a huge undertaking for them.


But, we don't know anything about "them" and their physiology. Sure, a trip that takes decades would be a major undertaking for humans, we live typically around 70 years or so before old age makes us to infirm to go around being adventurous. However, what is to say that an alien species has the same longevity? Our bodies have an inbuilt aging process which kicks in at a certain point in our life and that is the beginning of a downward spiral. How do you know that a possible alien race has even remotely the same biology? They may have an incredibly long life span in comparison, living thousands of years. A journey of a few decades would be just a small part of their lifespan, no different to human sailors spending months at sea at a time, except such an advanced civilization would likely have better methods for providing provisions for the crew than early human explorers.

You can't use time as a cause for it being a "huge undertaking" without understanding the time scale they live by, which is unlikely to be the same as ours.

Of course, it would still be a problem (travelling at or near light speed) if you intended to get back to your home planet and see your family, as the few decades they would be away would be massively longer for the universe outside the ship and they would return home many millenia later. But that assumes they intend to GO "home" and aren't travellers and explorers who took to a life in space.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I believe that there is almost certainly life out there in the universe and some of it is going to be sentient and have a technological civilization. I do agree that it is almost certain that it is going to be too far away to reach us, and that the odds are that the nearest places such a civilization may arise will have it arise at a time different to our own. There has been a few billion years (current estimate is 4.54 billion) since earth was formed and it has taken all of that for our civilization to arise. There is a distinct possibility that our civilization will destroy itself in the next century or two through climate change created by our excesses, or war as the increasing world population competes for dwindling resources. Given that gives a tiny window of a few centuries for a technological civilization (depending on how intelligently the dominant species controls its effect on the planet - some may be much more "green" minded than humanity) the odds are that 99.99% of such great civilizations will either rise and fall before we ever came down from the trees, or are still leaping from branch to branch themselves and trying to figure out how to make fire.

I do agree with you that the odds of such a civilization arising near enough to us to physically get here, and at a point in time concurrent with our own, is extremely unlikely. I just think that you can't assume the trip would be a huge undertaking should that actually happen.




  
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Sep 22, 2013 09:33 |  #51

iowajim wrote in post #16315969 (external link)
So what are we to believe then? I am certain that we do not know everything about everything just yet. To me, that means that I cannot rule out the possibility of life from another planet but it doesn't mean that it exists, either. And the arguments that suggest a government conspiracy is covering up the proof are unconvincing, you know, "well all the physical evidence that would prove my point is being held at a secret government installation so naturally there is no physical evidence even thought they've been living here for 1,000,000 years".

Take a look at the link Pekka posted in post #29. Look at what it says under "Aftermath".

Unfortunately this is too typical with government "investigations". The evidence is confiscated for further investigation and a report is later issued with an explanation that simply doesn't fit the facts. This happens time and time again.

This seems to be a trend all over the world, anywhere US influence is present the governments toe the line. Recently there have been exceptions to this, in Ecuador the President became aware that his intelligence service was bought and paid for by the CIA. He fired the entire leadership of that service. He ordered the CIA out of his country. Later, under pressure from ufologists and the media, he ordered the military to release what they had on UFOs.

In Brazil there may be some release of information about at least two very interesting UFO cases being held secret at present. If it happens it could blow the lid off the whole question of alien visitation.

Some other nations have been more open to the question as well, Belgium, France, Mexico and Argentina just to name a few.


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Sep 22, 2013 10:41 |  #52

breal101 wrote in post #16316071 (external link)
Take a look at the link Pekka posted in post #29. Look at what it says under "Aftermath".

Unfortunately this is too typical with government "investigations". The evidence is confiscated for further investigation and a report is later issued with an explanation that simply doesn't fit the facts. This happens time and time again.

I put more faith in Wikipedia than most, after contemplating Pausch's final lectures where he mentioned "after seeing the vetting process for data at a 'real' encyclopedia operation, I no longer have any issue with citing Wikipedia". But let's look a little deeper.

The only government operations that have had any success at avoiding disclosure have involved very few people. I do not consider it plausible that the government is capable of covering up the amount of involvement that has been alleged over the years regarding alien interaction.

What has been shown, time and time again, are people attempting to gain notoriety and money by inventing such farces. And I'm sure there are many events where people believe that they witnessed something extra-terrestrial but were mistaken. Imagination is a powerful deceiver.

And has been said before, it is very difficult to prove a negative. How does that work? OK, get a signed statement from every planted indicating that they never visited Earth, nor does their planet support any form of life. It is much easier to prove that something happened, yet nothing has escaped our government's grasp? We're a nation that elected Bush and Obama. We're not that smart.

Is that statement OK as long as I offend both political parties simultaneously? I'm sure I will find out...

I'd say we need to see some real evidence. But that has been said over and over again. And the response has been, over and over again, that our government is hiding it. Good luck with that!


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Sep 22, 2013 11:09 |  #53

iowajim wrote in post #16316210 (external link)
I put more faith in Wikipedia than most, after contemplating Pausch's final lectures where he mentioned "after seeing the vetting process for data at a 'real' encyclopedia operation, I no longer have any issue with citing Wikipedia". But let's look a little deeper.

The only government operations that have had any success at avoiding disclosure have involved very few people. I do not consider it plausible that the government is capable of covering up the amount of involvement that has been alleged over the years regarding alien interaction.

What has been shown, time and time again, are people attempting to gain notoriety and money by inventing such farces. And I'm sure there are many events where people believe that they witnessed something extra-terrestrial but were mistaken. Imagination is a powerful deceiver.

And has been said before, it is very difficult to prove a negative. How does that work? OK, get a signed statement from every planted indicating that they never visited Earth, nor does their planet support any form of life. It is much easier to prove that something happened, yet nothing has escaped our government's grasp? We're a nation that elected Bush and Obama. We're not that smart.

Is that statement OK as long as I offend both political parties simultaneously? I'm sure I will find out...

I'd say we need to see some real evidence. But that has been said over and over again. And the response has been, over and over again, that our government is hiding it. Good luck with that!

Here's just one example of a cover up that lasted decades: http://www.nbcnews.com …saved-d-day/#.Uj8UTRaUBeU (external link)

Maybe you don't believe NBC news either.

John Callahan testified for the disclosure project with a link provided by Pekka above.

I've heard his testimony as well as the actual tapes made on the day of the JAL incident.

You can choose to believe what you want. I suggest that you do a little research though before making wild accusations about people seeking fame and fortune.


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Sep 22, 2013 11:24 |  #54

iowajim wrote in post #16315969 (external link)
The science fiction community focuses on such life forms from our own perspective, creating a caricature if you will, to magnify our own issues for greater scrutiny.

Yes. Stories are about people, even when the setting and characters are exotic.

More interesting to me is that most of us (including myself) believe that we are surrounded and assisted by post-physical-life beings under the direction of an omnipotent being to help us avoid the efforts of another nearly omnipotent but evil being, but the thought of alien life is ridiculous. Go figure.

Most of us? No, a minority of people in the world subscribe to one or another variant of the beliefs you described. I'm not sure the thought of alien life is ridiculous to most people, either.

I believe that life elsewhere in the universe is a good possibility but we shouldn't assume that it's humanlike in a way that would make it want to travel. The motivation is missing if it has everything it needs at home. Human minds evolved to include curiosity because our lifestyle made it advantageous. That isn't true of all animal species on Earth, why would it be true of creatures on other planets?


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Sep 22, 2013 11:27 |  #55

I have a bunch of photos of objects that are unidentifiable and flying. Unfortunately, I think the documentary is looking for photos of alien spacecraft.


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Sep 22, 2013 11:45 |  #56

I believe photos of UFO's will be showing up in the next 2-3 years. It's only recently that large numbers of people have been carrying cameras with them that are good enough to get verifiable photos of these things - in their phones. As these camera phones proliferate it's only a short time until someone with one spots one and gets a good photo of it.




  
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Sep 22, 2013 12:12 |  #57

There are lots of things here on Earth that we cannot see, hear, smell, touch etc without the help of technology, so why would we find it so difficult to believe that other life exists elsewhere? Also, time itself is only a system of measurement relative to our own understanding. We think of how difficult it would be for "us" as humans to travel in time, but what if time moves more slowly for another species? Could they travel faster than the speed of light without aging as we would? The possibility may be there, but unfortunately, the proof is not.




  
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MikeFairbanks
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Sep 22, 2013 12:35 |  #58

In the end, the overwhelming majority of scientists who rely on evidence and procedure that can be reproduced by others do not believe that aliens have visited us.

Why?

There still exists no proof.

If I go to a tropical island and visit people who have never experienced freezing temperatures and who don't know anything about the modern world and I tell them that I can hold a gallon of water in one hand by making it solid, they would think I was crazy or lying.

But I can then back up my "wild fantasy" with actual proof. I can bring them a solid block of ice and they can watch it melt into a gallon container. The experiment can be repeated over and over. Proof is necessary for something to be real.

Until there is proof, then there are no aliens here and there never were.


If you really believe we were visited, then go get the evidence and prove it.

If you want me to believe in something because it might be true, then I get to claim that I can run faster than any man in the world. Prove me wrong. I can claim it without ever getting on a track. I get to say that it's a possibility and you should have an open mind and accept it. Don't let something like proof get in the way of your belief that I am the fastest man on the planet.

Silly conversation. I haven't seen a conversation this silly since Yeti and Nessie quarreled over New Coke vs. Classic Coke.


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MikeFairbanks
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Sep 22, 2013 12:45 |  #59

By the way, that "disclosure project" link has some dude boasting about a twelve-year-old news conference. He also has a bunch of stuff to sell. That site is empty.


Thank you. bw!

  
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Sep 22, 2013 12:48 |  #60

MikeFairbanks wrote in post #16316429 (external link)
Deleted stuff ........
Silly conversation. I haven't seen a conversation this silly since Yeti and Nessie quarreled over New Coke vs. Classic Coke.

Other people don't think so. Just don't look at this thread - rather than minimizing (and making fun of) other peoples opinions.


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