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Thread started 22 Oct 2013 (Tuesday) 04:22
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Exposure Compensation with Auto ISO Manual Mode on 1Dx

 
DarthVader
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Oct 22, 2013 08:54 |  #16

Whatever you want to call it, it works on Manual Mode and that's what I care for.

Jim_T wrote in post #16389800 (external link)
Yes, but you're compensating for a decision the camera's exposure computer made.. I just don't see how you can have a mode that must use computer control and call it Manual.


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Oct 22, 2013 09:05 |  #17

Jim_T wrote in post #16389800 (external link)
Yes, but you're compensating for a decision the camera's exposure computer made.. I just don't see how you can have a mode that must use computer control and call it Manual.

Because of the fact that you don't have to set ISO to auto in M. You can set it manually so it doesn't need a wasted space on the dial.

I'm not saying you don't know this already but if you select TV mode then the camera will choose first the lowest possible aperture first then adjust ISO. If you are in AV mode then the camera will choose the lowest possible shutter speed based on focal length (canon cameras know if it's crop or FF and will typically choose the 1/1 rule for camera shake) first before it adjust ISO.

In a low light setting on my 35 1.4 lets say I'm in AV mode and I have it selected to F2. The camera will then automatically select 1/40 before it will raise ISO. Well that will introduce motion blur. A half fast fix is selecting the minimum shutter speed option in the 6D/1D/5D3 which I have mine set to 1/125 most of the time. So in this case Manual mode would work for me because I can adjust the shutter speed based on what I want but still have auto ISO to be able to quickly adjust to what I'm shooting.

Take that example and put it in TV mode. Lets say I wanted to select 1/125 in TV well then the damn camera will put the Fstop to 1.4 or 1.6 before adjusting ISO well maybe I don't want that. maybe i wanted the F2 or 2.8 well it simply won't do it unless you manually select a higher iso.

So NOW you get to manually select F2 on a 1.4 lens and 1/125 and let the ISO adjust as needed. When you are at birthday parties and/or events and people have dark clothes vs bright clothes and/or you go from indoor to outdoor I want to use Manual mode and Auto ISO but typically it will be too dark for bright clothes or too bright for dark clothes. So for me I will typically use TV for low light indoor so I can control the motion and let the camera choose wide open and i'm OK with that but not always do I want wide open.

This is a brilliant fix for this. With this option I would never leave Manual mode and let auto iso perform it's duty.

When it comes to being able to quickly adapt to the enviroment then auto something on these damn cameras gets you the shot. I know that "all" manual is king and has it's place but seriously who uses that for non static shots. I'm not going around chasing my kids in full manual mode. I wouldn't even attempt to manually focus.

OOOhh, I just thought of a great idea. How about when you switch to manual mode it disables auto focus. now thats true manual. I wonder if we can get Canon on board with that idea.


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Oct 22, 2013 09:22 |  #18

Great new firmware, I can just hope it trickles down to 6D and perhaps 70D...
This is one of the few Nikon features I've always been envying.

Whether we call it manual or not, this is a great help for people shooting events/sports where the lighting can change quickly.
In Canon cameras other than 1DX, the one "workaround", if you can call it that, is the "minimum shutter speed" in the auto ISO menu (if your camera has that).

Using it in AV mode it allows me to set my minimum shutter speed (e.g. 1/125) for shooting events, while still keeping my preferred aperture, auto ISO, AND exposure compensation.
So that's what I've been using on my 6D and now 70D also when I shoot events. It has its limitations though.


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Stone ­ 13
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Oct 22, 2013 09:23 |  #19

It's about time, so where do we go to petition Canon to add this to the 5DIII? I'm sure they know 5DIII shooters can benefit from this just as much and the user base is far larger. the EC w/Auto ISO & 1/8k minimum shutter speed are must haves....


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Bones1974
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Oct 22, 2013 09:35 |  #20

I thought AE microadjustment could be used for EC in manual with auto ISO? If there is a dedicated menu setting (not in custom settings) coming then I welcome it :) I shoot wildlife in changing scenery and lighting conditions so auto ISO with EC is very useful to me.




  
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Oct 22, 2013 09:57 |  #21

A new auto setting with ISO as the floating variable is a pretty obvious thing to do once you have a digital camera where ISO speed is a true variable and not just a changeable (by changing the roll of film) value. I would guess that although it is pretty obvious that someone got a patent on it. If they would not licence that patent to Canon though Canon are stuck with a half assed implementation until the patent expires. Pentax have alsovhad a propper ISO priority mode for quite a while. I guess that electronic sensors with variable sensitivity have been around long enough now that those early patents are starting to expire, allowing anyone to implement the ISO priority mode.

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Oct 22, 2013 10:57 |  #22

Jim_T wrote in post #16389700 (external link)
One thing I don't like about this option is calling it 'M'anual mode with auto ISO... It's not Manual. The exposure computer in the camera is making decisions for the shooter.

In the mode options, you have 'Av' for auto aperture, 'Tv' for auto shutter speed.. To continue this logically, they should call it 'Iv' for auto ISO and add that to the menu.. Then ' M'anual would remain as a true manual mode.

I agree, however the ISO element is potentially the lowest priority of the 3 factors that make up exposure that affects the final product. Shutter speeds control how much blur or how little, aperture controls subject isolation, ISO is just about noise management and provides flexibility for the other 2 factors. With the continued improvements in ISO handling, having exposure compensation around a floating ISO value in manual mode isn't all that bad, and quite frankly doesn't take away from the "manual experience". If you don't want it, then don't set ISO to A...


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Oct 22, 2013 11:16 |  #23

Exactly like TeamSpeed said.
If I had to pick one variable during shooting an event, it would clearly be the ISO.
I want subject isolation and as much light as possible on the sensor, hence I pick a low aperture (unless I do need a deep DoF for groups for instance.)
I also want and do need proper shutter speed to avoid motion blur of my subjects (stabilization doesn't help here obviously.)
I quite often need EC too.
So that leaves ISO as the only variable, and like TeamSpeed said, today's good ISO performance (especially full framers) makes that possible. It is the ISO (high ISOs) that makes the smallest negative impact on my photos and is the best compromise, in my opinion. (That is said within reasonable limits, I'm not talking about ISO 52200)
Even when the auto ISO shoots higher to compensate for the conditions, it is much easier to reduce noise with a good software in post than fix motion blur.


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CanonVsNikon
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Oct 22, 2013 11:53 |  #24
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So has this feature been missing from Canon's all this time?

Nikon has had it for years.




  
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YashicaFX2
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Oct 22, 2013 12:32 |  #25
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DarthVader wrote in post #16389668 (external link)
There is nothing wrong with shooting P mode if that works for you; then this mode is not for you but for others that need to shoot M and be able to change exposure up or down quickly.

The way I outlined is about as fast as you can get. P-mode with auto-ISO allow direct access to aperture/shutter combinations. You HAVE to use one of them, don't you? The front dial does exposure shift, the rear does EC. Please explain how you could make that any easier.

You can change the aperture and shutter speed with one dial in P-mode. Any combination you can set in Manual is available in P mode. As you shift the exposure, the ISO stays the same. If you change EC, the ISO changes. And that is what this thread is about; getting the camera to do what you want it to do. Effective use of EC with auto-ISO is QUITE POSSIBLE. It is QUITE EASY. It just doesn't work in M-mode.

I understand wanting so shoot in Manual. The problem with doing it the way I outlined above is that it does not stick. You have to mess with the front dial to shift exposure EVERYTIME you obtain another exposure. It is a pain in the A$$, to say the least. But it does work. Today. You don't have to wait for a firmware upgrade to do it.

TeamSpeed, if I read his post correctly, got it just about bass-akwards. An Iv mode would allow you to fix ISO, much like Av allows you to fix aperture, and float the other two values. The only way that would work is in a M-type mode, but then you are COMPLETELY manual, or in P-type mode which shifts exposure with the front dial and sets EC with the back dial. And that is already possible.

I never suggested that my way was ideal, or that Canon does not need to ponder this complaint. My response was to those who believe that there is no way to use EC and auto-ISO together. That capability has been with us the whole time everyone's been complaining about the lack of it.


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Oct 22, 2013 12:35 |  #26
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Stone 13 wrote in post #16389908 (external link)
It's about time, so where do we go to petition Canon to add this to the 5DIII? I'm sure they know 5DIII shooters can benefit from this just as much and the user base is far larger. the EC w/Auto ISO & 1/8k minimum shutter speed are must haves....

This is already possible. The 60D does it. Yes, EC and auto-ISO AT THE SAME TIME.


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Oct 22, 2013 15:05 |  #27

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16390368 (external link)
This is already possible. The 60D does it. Yes, EC and auto-ISO AT THE SAME TIME.

I don't recall that feature when I had mine.


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TeamSpeed
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Oct 22, 2013 15:58 |  #28

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16390362 (external link)
TeamSpeed, if I read his post correctly, got it just about bass-akwards. An Iv mode would allow you to fix ISO, much like Av allows you to fix aperture, and float the other two values. The only way that would work is in a M-type mode, but then you are COMPLETELY manual, or in P-type mode which shifts exposure with the front dial and sets EC with the back dial. And that is already possible.

I never suggested that my way was ideal, or that Canon does not need to ponder this complaint. My response was to those who believe that there is no way to use EC and auto-ISO together. That capability has been with us the whole time everyone's been complaining about the lack of it.

Nobody is saying that you cannot use Auto ISO and EC together. You can use Av and Tv as well to do this, and with bodies that allow you to set min/max shutters, for example, then Av with auto-ISO with EC is usable. Or you go to Tv and set your shutter speed, and then use EC with auto-ISO, and supposedly the camera raises the ISO first, then aperture second if it runs into trouble. The problem is how trustyworthy is that? It works, but is not bulletproof, I have tried all the different methods. I have given up, and I just set the ISO to a value I know I can deal with and then work on the other two factors.

Iv, as you explain it would be backward, however, who's to say how Iv works? Iv mode, in my definition, would mean that ISO is locked into auto-mode, and you set EC for that, but you control aperture and shutter speed. Sure it would be different than Av and Tv, but who cares? It would just be another mode on the dial that does "something" and that "something" doesn't have to mimic the other dial settings. You need to think outside the box a bit.

Then manual could be put back to the purist view that you control all 3 values, and auto-ISO wouldn't even be selectable in that mode, and the exposure meter is truly what the camera thinks your exposure is going to be. This would stop the bickering about M being manual and the computer shouldn't think for you at all in that mode, and also address how the metering gauge in the viewfinder is supposed to play double duty as showing you what it thinks your settings are going to do vs exposure compensation. Unfortunately, Canon won't introduce a new mode dial, they will just "enhance" the auto-ISO setting in M mode so that there is some sort of button sequence that allows you to set EC. However, I am curious how this is displayed to the user using the conventional exposure meter in M mode vs the exposure compensation meter in the other modes.

Your method would completely not work for what I shoot, P mode during sports absolutely stinks, period and throwing it into auto-ISO with EC wouldn't help one iota. We have discussed this topic to death, and you are not the first to point out crippled methods that auto ISO exists with some form of exposure compensation. ;)

Is there a reason for being so accusatory and argumentative? It just seems strange as this is a need that exists on other bodies, and Canon has had about 4 different iterations of auto-ISO, all of which have been crippled in one way or another. You don't have to defend Canon by saying our stated needs are unnecessary because you have found a crippled way to make this work for what you shoot. :)


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Oct 22, 2013 16:06 |  #29
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TeamSpeed,
Apologies. And thanks for the detailed description of the theoretical Iv mode. That is way better than what I was thinking.

I agree with that my 'method' of doing it with the 60D is best used when you only have one shot to worry about. It irritates me that I can 'shift' exposure to wide open aperture for one shot, then have to do it all over again for the next shot. My method may work, in some situations, but it most certainly is a kludge that would be better addressed by a proper Iv mode with working EC.


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Oct 22, 2013 16:13 |  #30

If you could lock everything down in P mode so it wouldn't keep changing everything, it would be nice, but then I guess that would be the enhanced manual mode we are discussing.

I tend to use Tv mode right now for what I shoot using auto-ISO with EC. I basically am sacrificing DOF then, but when shooting sports, that isn't all that critical. I am not sure how the camera decides to change one of the 2 settings it has available, aperture vs ISO. I assume it does one first, then the other, so it lowers the ISO as low as it can go along with the aperture going as wide open as it can in low light, but then in other situations, what determination does it make? I would hope it take lens to wide open first each time, then raises/lowers ISO, and when either the ceiling value or floor values are hit in the configurations, it then changes the aperture.

I think there are some theories out there, but I haven't followed them.


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