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Thread started 05 Nov 2013 (Tuesday) 14:50
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Sony a7(R): Best thing that happened to Canon users this year.

 
Hogloff
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Nov 17, 2013 19:57 |  #121
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kfreels wrote in post #16459185 (external link)
I know. And I don't need a 1DX. I have a 7D that I'm happy with. I still think you are missing my point. My point was that although the Sony may do DR and resolution very well, that doesn't mean that Canon is somehow not making cameras that people want. There are a many, many other reasons that people buy cameras and many of us just don't need the extra DR and pixels enough to give up the other features we would have to lose to get into that camera system. That's all I'm saying. If you like the Sony, then by all means, go get one and quit griping at Canon.

One thing I do find interesting is that Sony is rumored to be coming out with Eye Control AF in 2014. That should excite you, Hogloff. ;) http://www.sonyalpharu​mors.com …acking-af-coming-in-2014/ (external link)

Unlike Canon, maybe Sony can get Eye Control focus right.:)




  
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EverydayGetaway
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Nov 17, 2013 22:20 |  #122

sploo wrote in post #16459270 (external link)
I think a lot of the issue stems from the fact that (historically) Canon had the "best" DSLR solution for landscapers, in the shape of the 5D2; and still has superb landscape lenses (such as their range of TS glass). Nikon had a great all-rounder with the D700.

...and then they "traded places" (with the replacements)

Canon landscape shooters (and there are plenty) have obviously now been looking rather jealously at the D800, with the knowledge that the 5D3 is now a superb all-rounder (unlike the 5D2) but is way off the image quality of the (more landscape/studio suited) Nikon. Hence the reason for the excitement with the A7R - for landscapers, high fps and fast AF are very low on the needs list.

A Canon shooter (with a selection of good glass) can now keep that glass and use it (with an adaptor) on the Sony; something that's not possible with the D800.

As long as the A7R delivers, it's an ideal solution - great Canon glass with an existing "fast" body (5D3, 7D) for work requiring an all-round with good AF, and the same glass with an A7R for landscapes.

At some point (I assume) Canon will make a high resolution sensor with great DR and fix all the banding problems (and thus Canon landscape shooters will be happy). Unfortunately, all they're getting for Xmas is a white EOS 100D, so they're p*ssed. And I don't blame them.

That's what happens in a competitive market though, and it's a good thing it does. Canon falling behind with certain technologies today is going to make them push their innovations further tomorrow. They didn't have to do much to invigorate the market, they were the market for a long time, of course they stuck with the "safe" choice for a while. Now that Sony and Nikon (still practically Sony IMO) are pushing their development ahead (and in a different direction) I'd stake money that Canon will follow suit with something bigger and better in the near future.

Canon has ooodles of R&D money to blow, I think they were quiet this year because they're working on the next big thing. I also think the advancement of the 70D is nothing to scoff at, people discredit the new technology way too quickly. I think that's easily the most significant thing to come out from Canon this year. People think it's only useful for video are just plain wrong, I could see that LV AF being very handy for numerous stills situations, but then, owning an EOS M has probably changed how I view my LV function with my 6D.

Nikon beat Canon to the punch coming into digital photography, then got almost completely overshadowed by Canon when they came into it, then Nikon came out with the first DSLR with video also, then look what Canon did to that market. Give them time, they'll come back swinging ;)


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freitz
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Nov 17, 2013 22:25 |  #123

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #16459728 (external link)
That's what happens in a competitive market though, and it's a good thing it does. Canon falling behind with certain technologies today is going to make them push their innovations further tomorrow. They didn't have to do much to invigorate the market, they were the market for a long time, of course they stuck with the "safe" choice for a while. Now that Sony and Nikon (still practically Sony IMO) are pushing their development ahead (and in a different direction) I'd stake money that Canon will follow suit with something bigger and better in the near future.

Canon has ooodles of R&D money to blow, I think they were quiet this year because they're working on the next big thing. I also think the advancement of the 70D is nothing to scoff at, people discredit the new technology way too quickly. I think that's easily the most significant thing to come out from Canon this year. People think it's only useful for video are just plain wrong, I could see that LV AF being very handy for numerous stills situations, but then, owning an EOS M has probably changed how I view my LV function with my 6D.

Nikon beat Canon to the punch coming into digital photography, then got almost completely overshadowed by Canon when they came into it, then Nikon came out with the first DSLR with video also, then look what Canon did to that market. Give them time, they'll come back swinging ;)

I hope your right. I would think 2014 is to early in product cycle for a new 1DX or 5D but if the pressure is on I would hope they would come to bat.


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EverydayGetaway
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Nov 17, 2013 23:06 |  #124

freitz wrote in post #16459741 (external link)
I hope your right. I would think 2014 is to early in product cycle for a new 1DX or 5D but if the pressure is on I would hope they would come to bat.

The 1DX and 5DIII are doing extremely well... there's no reason for them to be updated. The 6D is also doing very well. I think if anything they're going to launch the new sensor tech in the 7Dii and go from there, most likely with some new body designs and more importantly, lens updates. I wouldn't expect to see another 5D or 1D for at least another year, probably several.

The gap between the different companies sensors seriously isn't as huge as people like to make it out to be. Yes, there's a difference, but for most shooters it isn't a huge one.


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Nov 17, 2013 23:24 |  #125

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #16459815 (external link)
The 1DX and 5DIII are doing extremely well... there's no reason for them to be updated. The 6D is also doing very well. I think if anything they're going to launch the new sensor tech in the 7Dii and go from there, most likely with some new body designs and more importantly, lens updates. I wouldn't expect to see another 5D or 1D for at least another year, probably several.

The gap between the different companies sensors seriously isn't as huge as people like to make it out to be. Yes, there's a difference, but for most shooters it isn't a huge one.

I agree, wrt the 1Dx, 5DIII, and 6D being too new to update. But! It doesn't make sense to put a high(er) DR sensor in a sports/wildlife camera, and especially a cropper(1.6x) before a FF body.
Now, if they enlarged the 7DII to an APS-H sensor, yeah.. but that would eliminate the use of their APS-C lenses. That would also be counterproductive.


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EverydayGetaway
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Nov 18, 2013 02:14 |  #126

1Tanker wrote in post #16459845 (external link)
I agree, wrt the 1Dx, 5DIII, and 6D being too new to update. But! It doesn't make sense to put a high(er) DR sensor in a sports/wildlife camera, and especially a cropper(1.6x) before a FF body.
Now, if they enlarged the 7DII to an APS-H sensor, yeah.. but that would eliminate the use of their APS-C lenses. That would also be counterproductive.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Canon release a retro type FF camera with a new sensor to serve as an answer to both the Nikon Df and Sony a7, but time will tell. As for it not making any sense to put the new tech into a crop sensor, I don't know about all that, crop sensors these days are pretty darn good.


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sploo
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Nov 18, 2013 02:51 |  #127

tsdevine wrote in post #16459285 (external link)
Good summary...that's where I am.

And you're definitely not alone ;)

BrickR wrote in post #16459290 (external link)
Yeah, but the white SL1 is not intended for the US market. It is primarily aimed at the Asian market, which really likes white cameras. The US is not the center of the photography world :rolleyes:

But in all seriousness, I get what you're saying. Canon has been all but silent this year with cameras. Only the 70d with its "groundbreaking" LVAF for a DSLR; where as Nikon, Sony, and even Panasonic and Olympus have been putting out things and announcing things this year.
There will likely be a new EOS M next year, a new Rebel, maybe even the 7dii so next year could be a big year for Canon!! :cool:

Yea, it was a low (and easy) blow with the white 100D, but it seemed appropriate :D

Canon simply seem to be going after other areas - the dual pixel tech on the 70D is a great feature, and one that I suspect will be especially useful for amateur video shooters.

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #16459728 (external link)
That's what happens in a competitive market though, and it's a good thing it does. Canon falling behind with certain technologies today is going to make them push their innovations further tomorrow. ...

Nikon beat Canon to the punch coming into digital photography, then got almost completely overshadowed by Canon when they came into it, then Nikon came out with the first DSLR with video also, then look what Canon did to that market. Give them time, they'll come back swinging ;)

Good points about the lead moving from one company to another. My worry is that we've been in this low DR/banding "rut" with Canon for many years now, and they've shown no signs of coming out with something to correct that. Perhaps their R&D resources have been focussed on the 70D's sensor.

I can understand how "dual pixel AF" is a way better marketing tool than "no more banding, and about the same DR as our competitors"; but without fixing that problem they're cutting a lot of their (landscape) customers adrift. Which is somewhat ironic when I think that the 5D3 would probably be perfect if it just had the sensor from the Nikon D600, when you consider Nikon has their customers up in arms by "fixing" the dust issue by introducing a replacement model (rather than fixing the current one). You can't win sometimes I guess.


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Nov 18, 2013 04:50 |  #128

sploo wrote in post #16460099 (external link)
Good points about the lead moving from one company to another. My worry is that we've been in this low DR/banding "rut" with Canon for many years now, and they've shown no signs of coming out with something to correct that. Perhaps their R&D resources have been focussed on the 70D's sensor.

Much like Intel. They stuck with the P4/PD architecture (Netburst) way too long, while AMD made strides. Intel could only increase clock-speed, and add some instruction sets, then final went dual-core (the slightest improvements, in order to stop the bleeding).

Then the Israeli mobile team took the Dothan architecture, created Yonah then Merom.. and Intel finally, after many many years, blindsided, and put AMD down in a devastating way with Conroe. AMD still can't compete, some 6 or 7 years later, and has to sell their chips for dirt cheap. The only plus for AMD owners, is the upgradability of the motherboards/chipsets.​.. getting several generations of CPUs out of the same mobo without having to buy a new one, with each Tick or Tock.

Most Semiconductor fans and forums, really were shocked at Intel... they seemed to have nothing to counter AMD for so long.. but finally did.

But, i digress...:lol:


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genjurok
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Nov 18, 2013 07:19 |  #129

waterrockets wrote in post #16453303 (external link)
Probably the thing that will help the most users is Dual Pixel CMOS AF. That will surely be on the next Rebel and 7D2 also.

+1

I'm with this.

The dual pixel CMOS is much more exciting for me as it allows video AF like a camcorder! That's truly awesome! Also for the DR lovers, Canon now has a new generation dual pixel CMOS technology that allows dual ISO of different sensitivity in each pixel which handles light and shadow independently, thus will greatly improve DR range. The patent was filed already. Maybe we will see it in a couple of years on their new products.


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jdizzle
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Nov 18, 2013 09:08 |  #130

Oh great. Hope is still alive with Canon? ;) How about that fresh, new, all white Kiss camera? Lots of innovation there. :p The choice of color came from the CEO!




  
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kfreels
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Nov 18, 2013 09:37 |  #131

genjurok wrote in post #16460382 (external link)
+1

I'm with this.

The dual pixel CMOS is much more exciting for me as it allows video AF like a camcorder! That's truly awesome! Also for the DR lovers, Canon now has a new generation dual pixel CMOS technology that allows dual ISO of different sensitivity in each pixel which handles light and shadow independently, thus will greatly improve DR range. The patent was filed already. Maybe we will see it in a couple of years on their new products.

Yeah. I think the idea that this is just useful for video is wrong. There is no telling what other things can be done with this. Especially if you combine it with the new pellicle mirror design they just patented. If you took an updated version of their eye tracking AF, the pellicle mirror, and dual-pixel cmos, what do you have? A camera that can follow your eye and focus instantly anywhere you look in the viewfinder as it moves.

Breakthroughs in technology are fairly unpredictable. Failure to come up with a breakthrough in a certain period of time isn't really a failure on Canon's part. They can't just copy Sony's design. They have to come up with something that doesn't violate the patent. For all we know, Canon was a long way down the same track and Sony got to the patent office first which meant Canon had to go back to the drawing board. But sensor R&D continues because earlier this year they patented some new methods of building the foveon sensor which seems like they may have overcome one of the major problems with the design.

It's also easy to forget everything Canon went through in 2011 which set quite a few things back. They had the earthquake in the spring, rolling blackouts for a time after, then the floods in Thailand in the fall that took out some "key parts manufacturers". Anything close to rolling out was able to be wrapped up last year but things that were slated for this year were put on the back-burner to get the 5D3 and 1DX going.

I was going somewhere with this and now I can't remember where. :-P

I guess I just disagree with the idea that Canon is just sitting on their arse milking the market while others are bypassing them. Canon shares are worth more than Nikon and Sony for a reason. They know what they are doing. I doubt they would just sit back and watch others take over the market and I doubt that the Sony sensor or camera was any kind of surprise to them. The leap-frog game is just like this. It would be impossible for Canon to always be at the forefront with everyone lagging behind in every area. Even with the slightly inferior sensor, Canon remains the best at putting together a total package for nearly every kind of user and they have the best and clearest upgrade path of any of the companies which makes it the easiest system to get into and move up with. If the Canon sensors just aren't usable for you and you just can't bear to deal with the noise and DR, and you are comfortable using your lenses through an adapter that may or may not work, then by all means, jump ship. Canon may not be for you. But maybe you'll come back when they next leap the frog. I'm content to wait it out and enjoy photography without bouncing between the best sensor of the moment.

Heck, part of the joy of photography is finding unique ways to work around the limitations of the camera. :-)


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Nov 18, 2013 11:09 |  #132

kfreels wrote in post #16460709 (external link)
Heck, part of the joy of photography is finding unique ways to work around the limitations of the camera. :-)

I had to think about it, but you're right. The learning is exciting. Learning new PS techniques or ETTR shooting to get better ever high ISO images are pretty awesome moments for me in photography! I can't ever seem to get enough :)


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Nov 18, 2013 11:11 |  #133

jdizzle wrote in post #16460632 (external link)
Oh great. Hope is still alive with Canon? ;) How about that fresh, new, all white Kiss camera? Lots of innovation there. :p The choice of color came from the CEO!

Come on dude, you have too much to lose (tens of thousands of posts!!!) to troll this hard... ;)


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Nov 18, 2013 11:19 |  #134

andrikos wrote in post #16460942 (external link)
Come on dude, you have too much to lose (tens of thousands of posts!!!) to troll this hard... ;)

:lol: Gotta keep this forum interesting. ;)




  
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freitz
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Nov 18, 2013 16:31 |  #135

Not sure if this has been asked but...

Has anyone tested the a7r with the Canon L glass? Interested in the AF speed.


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