Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 18 Nov 2013 (Monday) 11:05
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

High ISO issues.

 
John ­ Sheehy
Goldmember
3,789 posts
Likes: 769
Joined Jan 2010
     
Nov 19, 2013 07:35 |  #46

abhphotography wrote in post #16460927 (external link)
Ok so this is probably just a n00b question, but I'm a little discouraged.

This weekend I shot in an indoor paintball facility where the lighting was much less than optimal, which required me to use a very high ISO (6400 to be exact). Now I understand that higher ISO's create more digital noise in the pictures and what not, but what I'm bothered about is that several of the pictures are useless because of that noise.

So, I'm curious, would a better lens help with that, or is it completely a limitation of using a high ISO?:o

Well, if you had a faster lens you wouldn't have to use as high an ISO. Taking a shortcut by getting a faster lens that has a narrower field of view, however, does not necessarily work, because you lose light when you crop. It doesn't matter how much exposure is in the frame if you throw much of it away, cropping. It's the actual size of the aperture (focal length divided by f-stop) that determines how much light you capture from your subject from a certain distance, not the f-stop.

You might want to experiment with shutter speed. You might not need it as fast as you think you do, and if you want to convey motion then you don't want to freeze the fastest moving thing in the frame.

The way you view or process your images has a huge effect on perceived noise. It makes no sense whatsoever to sharpen an image at the pixel level, and then downsample it. Sharpening should always be done as a last step. Sharpening images before downsizing only adds noise and artifacts. Also, many programs that people to use to view images on their monitors greatly increase noise by using the "Nearest Neighbor" downsizing method (or a similar hybrid), which greatly increases image noise. You want to use the option for smoother results, or a program that offers that option. It is very easy to see what I am talking about in FastStone Image Viewer; at the menu at the bottom of thescreen, it has a toggle called "Smooth". If you check it, the image is more properly downsampled; if you uncheck it, it is potentially aliased, and very noisy. Same concern applies to the method you use to resize an image in an editor; most have options, with Laczos being the best usually, and nearest neighbor (sometimes called other things) being a total disaster for images that are noisy or sharp to begin with.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
John ­ Sheehy
Goldmember
3,789 posts
Likes: 769
Joined Jan 2010
     
Nov 19, 2013 07:45 |  #47

Invertalon wrote in post #16460965 (external link)
When shooting at high ISO it is critical to nail exposure.

While more exposure at any given ISO and lighting situation results in a higher signal-to-noise ratio, it is not the nailing of anything at a high ISO that decreases the noise, but it is the actual absolute exposure, irregardless of the ISO, which is relevant at high ISOs. Under-exposing ISO 1600 by a stop is just as good as over-exposing ISO 6400 by a stop; they are both the same absolute exposure as a normal ISO 3200 exposure. Unless you are shooting JPEG-only, you should be able to make them look the same. The difference is, the over-exposed 6400 will have less room for highlight details.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tkbslc
Cream of the Crop
24,586 posts
Likes: 26
Joined Nov 2008
Location: Utah, USA
     
Nov 19, 2013 11:12 |  #48

MakisM1 wrote in post #16463202 (external link)
Anders, there is a tremendous amount of gain to be had by ETTR which is free. The OP's photos were underexposed and paid the price 'increasing the ISO in PP'... Not that I would turn down a 300 mm f2.8 :D

You can only "ETTR" if you have the light to do so.


Taylor
Galleries: Flickr (external link)
EOS Rp | iPhone 11 Pro Max

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
hairy_moth
Goldmember
Avatar
3,739 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 16
Joined Apr 2009
Location: NJ
     
Nov 19, 2013 12:19 |  #49

tkbslc wrote in post #16463755 (external link)
You can only "ETTR" if you have the light to do so.

It is the only way I shoot high ISO; 1/3 sometimes 2/3s of a stop to the right.
I get better results by cranking up the ISO an additional stop and shooting to the right than I do with the lower ISO dead-on. I don't understand why, it seems counter-intuitive, but it works.


7D | 300D | G1X | Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 | EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 | EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro | EF 85mm f/1.8 | 70-200 f/2.8L MkII -- flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
nathancarter
Cream of the Crop
5,474 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 601
Joined Dec 2010
     
Nov 19, 2013 12:25 as a reply to  @ tkbslc's post |  #50

M_Six wrote in post #16461765 (external link)
If you skip the IS, you'll need to keep a shutter speed of 1/250 to avoid camera shake blur. So that may be defeating the purpose. Shooting at 200mm f2.8 or f4 and 1/50 shutter speed might get you better exposure, but your shots will be very fuzzy. It's a trade-off.

In this case, the subjects are also going to be a limiting factor on shutter speed. Regardless of focal length or camera shake, you can't expect to shoot paintball players at 1/50 and get many usable images.

Since it's under fluorescent light, 1/125 shutter speed, coupled with some luck, timing, and anticipation of players' movements, might be the sweet spot.


http://www.avidchick.c​om (external link) for business stuff
http://www.facebook.co​m/VictorVoyeur (external link) for fun stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
39,178 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7669
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
     
Nov 19, 2013 12:52 as a reply to  @ nathancarter's post |  #51

This would be a great lens for that scenario. Focusing is faster than the 55-250, and you gain 2 stops of light, allowing you to expose properly at ISO 6400 instead of 25600, assuming you keep the same shutter speed. If you wanted more shutter speed, it would come at the expense of ISO (by changing the ISO or underexposing). You would lose IS however, and that is a big concern if you are not able to hold your end steady. A monopod might be a good addition for that.

http://www.ebay.com …enses&hash=item​4616156c58 (external link)


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
For Sale: Sigma USB Dock

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MakisM1
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,654 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 386
Joined Dec 2011
Location: Houston
     
Nov 19, 2013 13:24 |  #52

tkbslc wrote in post #16463755 (external link)
You can only "ETTR" if you have the light to do so.

Of course! But if instead of ISO 5000 the OP could shoot at ISO 25600 and at f2.8 he would have 4 stops to play with...;)

My experience shooting the f2.8 at ISO12800, the Great White Father refused to AF 75% of the time... That low a light... Anything above this, I can shoot... ;)


Gerry
Canon 5D MkIII/Canon 60D/Canon EF-S 18-200/Canon EF 24-70L USM II/Canon EF 70-200L 2.8 USM II/Canon EF 50 f1.8 II/Σ 8-16/ 430 EXII
OS: Linux Ubuntu/PostProcessing: Darktable/Image Processing: GIMP

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
M_Six
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
7,561 posts
Gallery: 64 photos
Likes: 1387
Joined Dec 2010
Location: East Central IL
     
Nov 19, 2013 13:32 |  #53

nathancarter wrote in post #16463936 (external link)
In this case, the subjects are also going to be a limiting factor on shutter speed. Regardless of focal length or camera shake, you can't expect to shoot paintball players at 1/50 and get many usable images.

Since it's under fluorescent light, 1/125 shutter speed, coupled with some luck, timing, and anticipation of players' movements, might be the sweet spot.

True. Stopping action takes shutter speed. No 2 ways about it. But the shots he posted looked to be relatively static. In those 2 instances, he would have been ok with 1/60 or so if he had IS.

And I agree also with what you and others have posted. Fluorescent lighting is a bear. I was shooting an event this past week in a well lit hallway with fluorescent lighting and I still needed to crank the ISO to get decent DOF and shutter speed. Plus you have to deal with crazy WB swings if you shoot below 1/160 or so due to the fluorescent light cycling.


Mark J.
Gear

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jimrob714
Senior Member
Avatar
282 posts
Gallery: 34 photos
Likes: 197
Joined Feb 2013
Location: Largo, Fl
     
Nov 20, 2013 05:44 |  #54

Great thread, I got a lot out of this. Thanks!


Visit my flickr (external link)and Smugmug (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
paintcheck
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
154 posts
Joined Jun 2013
Location: Indianapolis
     
Nov 20, 2013 05:58 |  #55

jimrob714 wrote in post #16465955 (external link)
Great thread, I got a lot out of this. Thanks!

Glad it was helpful to someone else but me! I figured there had to be someone else out there with the same question.

In regards to the two pictures I posted. These were not "staged" photos, however it was one of a series of shots I took of that player as he moved around in his cover. Sadly with how fast the games move and change, its going to be hard to shoot at a lower shutter speed and not have garbage pictures :( . I could see this if I was taking a staged team photo on the field or something though, thank you for that good piece of advice!

I am finding that as I work them a bit in lightroom (finally figured out it had editing settings! still navigating my way around in the program, but hey, gotta start somewhere!) that I am able to correct most of the noise, however at the expense of some of the finer details, like the players eyes inside the mask, etc. I guess having my cake and eating it too isn't going to happen this time around :cry: lol.


Camera(s): 7D, (wishing for a 5dm3)
Lenses: Tamron 70-200 f2.8 VC / Tamron 75-300 f/4-5.6 / Canon Nifty Fifty / Tamron 10-24 f/3.5-4.5
Cards: 16GB/32Gb SanDisks CF

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
39,178 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7669
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
     
Nov 20, 2013 06:25 |  #56

abhphotography wrote in post #16465964 (external link)
Glad it was helpful to someone else but me! I figured there had to be someone else out there with the same question.

In regards to the two pictures I posted. These were not "staged" photos, however it was one of a series of shots I took of that player as he moved around in his cover. Sadly with how fast the games move and change, its going to be hard to shoot at a lower shutter speed and not have garbage pictures :( . I could see this if I was taking a staged team photo on the field or something though, thank you for that good piece of advice!

I am finding that as I work them a bit in lightroom (finally figured out it had editing settings! still navigating my way around in the program, but hey, gotta start somewhere!) that I am able to correct most of the noise, however at the expense of some of the finer details, like the players eyes inside the mask, etc. I guess having my cake and eating it too isn't going to happen this time around :cry: lol.

Without a faster lens, or more lighting, you aren't going to be able to make much headway. Even buying a new camera like a 5D3 or 6D to get better ISO performance is going to be of limited value, because you are shooting at equivalent ISO 25600 given your existing lens and exposure settings.

Learning the finer art of setting up your camera for the very best raw content, learning how to tweak the raw, and post process the JPG is definitely a great thing to help you in the future, but that will only get you about 30-50% of the way there, you really need to look for a faster lens by at least 1 stop, but I think 2 personally.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
For Sale: Sigma USB Dock

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
paintcheck
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
154 posts
Joined Jun 2013
Location: Indianapolis
     
Nov 20, 2013 06:29 |  #57

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16465996 (external link)
Without a faster lens, or more lighting, you aren't going to be able to make much headway. Even buying a new camera like a 5D3 or 6D to get better ISO performance is going to be of limited value, because you are shooting at equivalent ISO 25600 given your existing lens and exposure settings.

Learning the finer art of setting up your camera for the very best raw content, learning how to tweak the raw, and post process the JPG is definitely a great thing to help you in the future, but that will only get you about 30-50% of the way there, you really need to look for a faster lens by at least 1 stop, but I think 2 personally.

This event has been a great learning experience for me. Now that I know what to expect inside there, I can better adjust for it and hopefully make the best out of what equipment I have. I knew that my equipment would be a drawback for sure, I just didn't think it would be this unforgiving. I think the only thing left on my equipment list is a faster lens (looking specifically at the 70-200 f2.8 be it canon or tamron), so I don't plan on throwing money at any more bodies for a while.

Learning the post processing is my next big challenge. There's just so much and for a lack of better comparison a "dummies" guide to raw processing 100. ha! But living, learning, practicing, and getting helpful advice is surely going to help me along!


Camera(s): 7D, (wishing for a 5dm3)
Lenses: Tamron 70-200 f2.8 VC / Tamron 75-300 f/4-5.6 / Canon Nifty Fifty / Tamron 10-24 f/3.5-4.5
Cards: 16GB/32Gb SanDisks CF

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
39,178 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7669
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
     
Nov 20, 2013 06:39 |  #58

abhphotography wrote in post #16466003 (external link)
This event has been a great learning experience for me. Now that I know what to expect inside there, I can better adjust for it and hopefully make the best out of what equipment I have. I knew that my equipment would be a drawback for sure, I just didn't think it would be this unforgiving. I think the only thing left on my equipment list is a faster lens (looking specifically at the 70-200 f2.8 be it canon or tamron), so I don't plan on throwing money at any more bodies for a while.

Learning the post processing is my next big challenge. There's just so much and for a lack of better comparison a "dummies" guide to raw processing 100. ha! But living, learning, practicing, and getting helpful advice is surely going to help me along!

Look at Noiseware Community, it is a free starter tool for managing noise. It won't do too much for you though on such high ISO results. If you watch Ebay, you can get a Sigma 2.8 lens for $500 or so, one of the older variants, but still good.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
For Sale: Sigma USB Dock

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
nathancarter
Cream of the Crop
5,474 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 601
Joined Dec 2010
     
Nov 20, 2013 09:52 |  #59

abhphotography wrote in post #16465964 (external link)
I am finding that as I work them a bit in lightroom (finally figured out it had editing settings! still navigating my way around in the program, but hey, gotta start somewhere!) that I am able to correct most of the noise

If you have the time to dedicate to it, lynda.com has several great sets of training on Lightroom, by Chris Orwig. He goes through all the modules, but I got the most out of the training on the Develop module. I do most of my photo edits in Lightroom now.

I'm sure kelbytraining.com has some good stuff too.
tv.adobe.com also has some good info - for free! - but it's not as in-depth as the dedicated training sites. Look for the Lightroom videos by Julieanne Kost.

signed, enthusiastic Lightroom advocate


http://www.avidchick.c​om (external link) for business stuff
http://www.facebook.co​m/VictorVoyeur (external link) for fun stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tkbslc
Cream of the Crop
24,586 posts
Likes: 26
Joined Nov 2008
Location: Utah, USA
     
Nov 20, 2013 11:20 |  #60

abhphotography wrote in post #16466003 (external link)
I think the only thing left on my equipment list is a faster lens (looking specifically at the 70-200 f2.8 be it canon or tamron), so I don't plan on throwing money at any more bodies for a while.
!

Do you really need two bodies? You could sell the T5i and pretty much pay for a used non-stabilized Sigma 50-150 or 70-200 f2.8 HSM with nothing out of pocket.


Taylor
Galleries: Flickr (external link)
EOS Rp | iPhone 11 Pro Max

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

7,225 views & 0 likes for this thread
High ISO issues.
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is lamacchiacosta
817 guests, 265 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.