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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 02 Dec 2013 (Monday) 19:01
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Shutter speed in Program Mode

 
Shooting
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Dec 05, 2013 21:18 |  #16

I seen that same class you did I bet. I've seen them all, his last one few months ago he shot a live wedding on there, two of their employees got married.

I'd hate though to set my stuff on Manual and then when the rooms change quickly or I need to make a dash outside I got back to adjusting or go into P mode. Seems easier to put it in P mode and stay there with just a few FEC if needed, I just wish that with flash, the P would be faster than 1/60 as I'm not as young as I used to be and I have the first generation of canon 24-70 2.8 L which does not have IS.




  
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Dec 06, 2013 02:43 |  #17

Shooting wrote in post #16505111 (external link)
I seen that same class you did I bet. I've seen them all, his last one few months ago he shot a live wedding on there, two of their employees got married.

I'd hate though to set my stuff on Manual and then when the rooms change quickly or I need to make a dash outside I got back to adjusting or go into P mode. Seems easier to put it in P mode and stay there with just a few FEC if needed, I just wish that with flash, the P would be faster than 1/60 as I'm not as young as I used to be and I have the first generation of canon 24-70 2.8 L which does not have IS.

You are really set in getting this P mode thing to work for you arn't you?

I love watching pro's work, seeing what they do, or reading their tips and tricks. I have learned some great thing. But one of the things I've learned is that not everything they do works for me (I HATE back button focus!!!...like want to punch babies hate!....ok enough of that :p). I think you really need to ask yourself "Does this really work for me?" As an outside observer reading this thread I would say the P mode thing is not for you.

But I have good news. The reasons you're giving for wanting to use P mode, the whole changing rooms quickly or Joe's example of shooting a bride in front of a window then dad walking in the door across the room. Guess what, Av mode can be used the exact same way and will give you the same exact outcome as P mode does in those situations. Only difference is that you have to pick the aperture, then the camera picks the shutter (instead of the camera picking both).

Oh wait, did I say the only difference was that? My mistake, there is one other difference. ;)

In the camera's custom function menus there is an option, for Av mode only, to have the camera set a shutter speed of 1/60-1/250 when a flash is attached (this is what P mode does) OR you can to pick the option for the camera to have a fixed shutter speed of 1/250 when a flash is attached. You might want to give that a spin instead




  
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Dec 06, 2013 14:01 as a reply to  @ gremlin75's post |  #18

Hey, I didn't know that. I'll give that AV thing a shot then. I hate AV exclusively to call the shots many times cause what if the shutter it chooses is less then 60 for the aperture I want?

hahaha, you are right, bound and determined to get P to work but hey, it is only a computer and can only do what a programmer said it can do, no use in me fighting it. I kinda light back button focus cause once it focuses and does the light reading then I can shoot away as long as they stay in the same position. I don't like pressing the shutter button and it gives me a different reading every time for every click. Unless I shoot in spot metering mode for the face only. With back button focus I can focus on the eyes then move the camera down for a full view and shoot and it is in focus. If I use shutter button focus it will focus on the eyes and then if I move down for composition wise it may then focus on the flowers or dress making the eyes less sharp where as back button I press it in, get the reading and focus and let off and shoot, no other readings are being taken. But I do have to say that my average of sharp pics are reduced for using back button for some reason. If I used AV and chose for the shutter not to go below 100 and pick my own aperture, if what I used is not right then it will adjust the aperture by itself to match the shutter right? if that is true then choosing my own f stop is totally defeated.




  
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Dec 06, 2013 15:23 as a reply to  @ Shooting's post |  #19

How and why Joe does what he does. Love this video.

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=00K7pBWOInk (external link)




  
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Dec 06, 2013 19:26 |  #20

The situation with the white brides dress and black groom tux is why I put my flash on manual, instead of ETTL.

And if I have to dash outside, I flip the dial over to Av, turn the flash to ETTL if I have to and I am good to go in seconds.

I will say, that quick of a lighting change rarely happens to me.


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Dec 06, 2013 21:15 |  #21

Shooting wrote in post #16506791 (external link)
Hey, I didn't know that. I'll give that AV thing a shot then. I hate AV exclusively to call the shots many times cause what if the shutter it chooses is less then 60 for the aperture I want?

Simple, just change to a larger aperture or raise the ISO to give you the shutter speed you want.

I don't see how that is any different to P mode, the camera will try and expose the shot to the same level, so in P mode if it stuck to 1/60th it would open the aperture anyway so you would still have a larger aperture than you may have wanted. Either way, to get the smaller aperture you want for DOF and have the shutter speed stay above 1/60th you would simply need to raise ISO, whether you are in P mode or Av mode.

Whatever mode you use, ultimately you control the settings yourself and simply allow the camera a fudge factor on one setting, to allow for different lighting. You keep that camera variable setting in the range you want with the other two you set yourself.

If you aren't getting the right shutter speeds, or apertures, that is down to not understanding how to control the camera, whichever mode you use.




  
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gremlin75
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Dec 06, 2013 21:48 |  #22

Shooting wrote in post #16506791 (external link)
If I used AV and chose for the shutter not to go below 100 and pick my own aperture, if what I used is not right then it will adjust the aperture by itself to match the shutter right? if that is true then choosing my own f stop is totally defeated.

In Av you choose the aperture. With the flash attached it will limit the shutter speed to 1/60-1/250 (and it will change depending on the scene just like in P) OR you can fix he shutter speed at 1/250 (it will not change and will stay at 1/250 no matter what)

I don't know what you mean by "if what I used is not right then it will adjust the aperture by itself to match the shutter right?" If what you chose was not what you were looking for then yes adjust the aperture. You don't need to pick an aperture to "match" a shutter speed with flash. The shutter speed only controls your ambient exposure not your flash exposure.

I'd say choosing your own aperture is far from defeated. You choose an aperture biased on creative needs. I'm program you're just letting a camera make the creative choices for you.

sandpiper wrote in post #16507656 (external link)
I don't see how that is any different to P mode, the camera will try and expose the shot to the same level, so in P mode if it stuck to 1/60th it would open the aperture anyway so you would still have a larger aperture than you may have wanted. Either way, to get the smaller aperture you want for DOF and have the shutter speed stay above 1/60th you would simply need to raise ISO, whether you are in P mode or Av mode.

Not necessarily. Like I said, there is a custom function option to fix the SS at 1/250 when using a flash. The down side to that is no creative control over the ambient.....but again, why I use manual with flash.




  
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yogestee
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Dec 07, 2013 05:37 |  #23

Shooting wrote in post #16499558 (external link)
Yes, sorry..I should have said, I'm using the 580exII flash. Bouncing at 1/60 is way too slow. I'm using a Canon 50D. I wish I could make the camera go faster but keep f/4. I don't do manual because of the limitations there also when using the flash in ettl. Even when camera is in manual and you are shooting a bride the flash reads the white dress and cuts off prematurely. Men in black and it stays on too long washing them all out., Right now I'm shooting P and spot metering on face.

Flash photography works best with your camera set to manual.

I don't understand the bolded sentence. Please clarify.


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Dec 07, 2013 10:49 |  #24

yogestee wrote in post #16508258 (external link)
Flash photography works best with your camera set to manual.

I don't understand the bolded sentence. Please clarify.

For the reason I listed. Shooting a high contrast scene the flash is fooled which is why adjustments need to be made, You can't stick with ettl without it being fooled at some point.

I tried manual but like Joe said, you are shooting the bride and getting ready and you have everything set to manual or camera on manual and flash to ettl and then, the door behind you opens up letting in light you never set your settings to and bam, there it goes, photo missed. Whereas if you were in P with AE Lock on shooting and something happens to change the lighting all of a sudden, you just let go of the AE Lock and it gives you the new reading and you keep on shooting.

I'm just trying to simplify things since I had to fire my 2nd. shooter so I've got it all on my shoulders to get all the shots and quickly.




  
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Dec 07, 2013 11:18 |  #25

Shooting wrote in post #16508736 (external link)
For the reason I listed. Shooting a high contrast scene the flash is fooled which is why adjustments need to be made, You can't stick with ettl without it being fooled at some point.

I tried manual but like Joe said, you are shooting the bride and getting ready and you have everything set to manual or camera on manual and flash to ettl and then, the door behind you opens up letting in light you never set your settings to and bam, there it goes, photo missed. Whereas if you were in P with AE Lock on shooting and something happens to change the lighting all of a sudden, you just let go of the AE Lock and it gives you the new reading and you keep on shooting.

I'm just trying to simplify things since I had to fire my 2nd. shooter so I've got it all on my shoulders to get all the shots and quickly.

Exactly the same will apply if you are shooting in Av, but without the shutter speed issue that you are complaining about with P.

Weddings are not easy things to photograph, you need to have control over your exposures. As a person shooting weddings professionally you should have the knowledge to be able to quickly and easily adapt your settings to the situation, yet you don't seem to understand how the different modes work. You seem to use P mode because one wedding photographer you admire shoots in P and it works for him. It doesn't work for most people, and you yourself are frustrated with the fact that you don't have the control you want, yet any suggestions to switch to another mode are responded to with arguments as to why you don't want to do that. Arguments which make little or no sense such as the one bolded above.

I don't doubt that P works, and seems to work well, for Buissink. However, he probably has some methods in his workflow which allow it to work well for him. That doesn't mean it will work well for you, if you don't shoot the same way he does.

You can either accept that P has some limitations and adopt a workflow which shoots around them, or do as most other wedding photographers do and use another mode. The most important thing though is to learn how your camera works, so that you don't find yourself complaining that the camera won't pick the right settings. Having the right settings is your responsibility, not the cameras.




  
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Dec 07, 2013 14:03 |  #26

I have shot many weddings in manual and a few in Program. I just got tired of the limitations of manual. In manual you adjust your settings to the scene but Program makes the adjustments automatic, just needs tweaked now and then. Trust me, I know how quickly things can change in a wedding and I have changed to meet the scene, just getting tired of all the changing from one room to the next many times, just trying to find a way to make it easier, that's all. I have 4 flashes and have shot them on manual on them with remote controls for formals, outdoor portraits, etc. Just trying to find an easier way.




  
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Dec 07, 2013 14:49 |  #27

But I don't like everything Joe does. When he does use a flash he doesn't believe in gelling. He will set WB the best he can and if it doesn't look good he will just convert it to B&W. I gel my flash 99% of the time.




  
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Dec 07, 2013 15:59 |  #28

Shooting wrote in post #16509093 (external link)
I have shot many weddings in manual and a few in Program. I just got tired of the limitations of manual. In manual you adjust your settings to the scene but Program makes the adjustments automatic, just needs tweaked now and then. Trust me, I know how quickly things can change in a wedding and I have changed to meet the scene, just getting tired of all the changing from one room to the next many times, just trying to find a way to make it easier, that's all. I have 4 flashes and have shot them on manual on them with remote controls for formals, outdoor portraits, etc. Just trying to find an easier way.

You know, there is a difference for different scenarios...you are talking about weddings, well, that's a "specialty"...we do have a wedding discussion section, I believe. But then there is portraiture (more controlled lighting) and then there are indoor events, and even more casual settings. I think that each scenario calls for some thought. In fact, in casual indoor settings I have found the "P" mode to work quite well, but I've also found Manual to work quite well, delivering very similar settings to "P" and in fact to Auto as well:)!


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Shutter speed in Program Mode
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