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Thread started 04 Jan 2014 (Saturday) 14:12
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1,2,3,4 TB drives?

 
mike_d
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Jan 05, 2014 01:34 |  #16

ImCBParker wrote in post #16578671 (external link)
It is not technically a back up, but by definition it creates a redundancy that helps in the event of a single drive failure.

I have heard very good things about the Synology devices as well.

Yes, RAID does provide tolerance of one or more drive failures, depending on the configuration, and keeps the data available during the repair process. That's good and its why I use it.

But there are so many things that can go wrong and kill your data beyond a drive simply failing. Drives can fail intermittently. Arrays can get corrupted. RAID controllers can go nuts and write junk. Then there's user issues of accidental deletion or overwriting of file. Nasty malware like Cryptolocker can encrypt your files and hold the key for ransom. Natural disasters or theft can take the entire RAID out. Regardless of RAID, important data must be regularly backed up to some off-line and off-site medium.




  
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ImCBParker
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Jan 05, 2014 01:46 |  #17

Well put. I rotate four drives off site for those reasons. Luckily, I run a Mac so I do not have to worry about Crypotlocker and it's brethren. As long as most corporations' continue to use PCs most malware authors will continue to target the larger audience, but I am sure in time someone will create one for OSX.


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Eyal
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Jan 05, 2014 02:53 |  #18

Regarding storage, personally, I have a home made NAS with 8x3TB of drives at RAID6 (which means it can survive 2 drives failures).
All of my photos and work I save on that NAS.
Everything which is extra important and I want to save for future use (important project photos, rendered work, and so on) I save on two different external drives (same data on both). One I keep at home, and the other I keep at brother's house and I update it once a month or so.

This way I have a protected copy of my work plus two "just in case" copies of the important stuff if all else fails.

It might of course be and over-the-top self protection, but its better than holding your head in your hands mumbling "its gone, its all gone" in case something horrible happens.


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Mark0159
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Jan 05, 2014 03:25 |  #19

I have had a HDD crash on me on the 2nd of Jan :) luckly I knew it was happening and made a backup before it went south so it was no big deal. I moved up from a TB of storage to 2TB of storage. this is a single HDD that sits in my desktop computer.

If you really care about backing up your photos then you need to use a backup system and not rely on a NAS system. NAS are good for making sure that your current data is accessible and that you can store large amounts of data. However DVD's are old and the amount you need to backup 1000's of photos makes them a no go.

but you need a backup even if you have a NAS. If something where to happen to the NAS, even if the HDD's are ok then you can't access the data. This is the problem with a NAS system. The data is store on it's own file system so a different type of NAS can't access the files. (this is why I store a large HDD inside my computer that's using a Windows NTFS. if the computer goes I can remove the HDD and plug it into another computer running Windows (or Mac) and get access to the data)

This is the important part of any type of storage, getting access to the data that's stored on the drives.

I would recommend getting the biggest HDD your money can afford and then getting another one of the same size. Store your data on one drive and then backup it using a backup software, xcopy command or a robocopy command if you really want. Then store that HDD offsite. Away from your primary computer. And if your really worried then have another backup and store that across town or some place.

I havn't found a good backup software. I would like to just copy the files and not store them in a speical format as you may have guessed. So I use windows copy and make sure that each backup directory has the same size and the same number of files. Just make sure you treat the backup HDD with kid gloves. it's still a HDD with moving parts. Dropping it from any height while it's running is not good for it.

:)


Mark
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hollis_f
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Jan 05, 2014 05:21 |  #20

John from PA wrote in post #16577766 (external link)
Do you really need ready access to all those images? I'd get a good cataloging program and start burning to DVD. It's lot of work now, but as you move forward if you do this on a regular basis it isn't a difficult task. Just remember FIFO, first in first out.

Yes, just replace your 1TB drive with over 200 DVDs. That's much slower than another couple of TB drives, as well as taking up a huge amount of physical space. And don't forget the days and days of fun copying everything to the disks (what a shame you can't automate it) plus another few days to catalog everything. And of course, retrieval time will be wonderfully slow.

Or you could try chiselling the 1s and 0s onto a stone slab.


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GunnarOlafsson
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Jan 05, 2014 05:21 as a reply to  @ Mark0159's post |  #21

Interesting things that have been raised in this topic.

But I would also consider having a backup copy on an off-site in case your house floods, burns or is burgled.

Personally I have too 2TB drives (same brand though) and every time I load need photos, I run a script that copies new files over to the backup drive.

Then I regularly bring in a drive that I normally store at work and make a 3rd copy onto that and take back to work for safe keeping.


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P51Mstg
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Jan 05, 2014 09:46 as a reply to  @ post 16578671 |  #22

SCREW THE DVDs,,,, I burned some years ago and tried to READ them on a different machine.... Guess what the DVD drive didn't recognize the disk....

Keep everything on LIVE hard drives of some kind. Every couple years up grade the technology or size and dispose of the old one. That way they all work.......

Mark H
PS: I have number of THECUS NAS drives. I keep putting new drives in them over time. NEVER HAVE HAD A PROBLEM......


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EOS5DC
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Jan 05, 2014 10:05 |  #23
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John from PA wrote in post #16577766 (external link)
Do you really need ready access to all those images? I'd get a good cataloging program and start burning to DVD. It's lot of work now, but as you move forward if you do this on a regular basis it isn't a difficult task. Just remember FIFO, first in first out.

Bad idea. DVD is slow, comparatively unreliable and stores too little data. Even with DD disks, you'll need 110 of them to back up 1TB. Backing up 4TB to DVD would take the rest of your life. After that you still have the cataloging problem. And if you have to use it to restore anything, show your grandchildren how to finish it up. You'll be gone by then.

(I just read Mr. Hollis' commentary on DVD. He stated it much more elegantly than I did.)

I use a convoluted, but inexpensive backup system. I have a second internal HDD and batch files to back up everything daily. I have two (three?) external USB drives/enclosures and use batch files to update them from time to time. Keep one at home and one off-site. Hard drives are cheap. I use a triple-redundant system that costs only the price of the disks. No software costs; I write the necessary backups myself. It is not difficult.

cd \
xcopy *.* /d /y /s (Destination disk):\

will backup everything on your hard disk that has been changed or added since the last time you ran it.


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RileyNZL
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Jan 05, 2014 10:55 |  #24

The problem with RAID 5 systems which most NAS's use (And drobo's) is that the platform is designed for high up time, not data protection. If a drive dies and you need to do a rebuild, the chance of a second drive failing while doing the rebuild is very high, especially with todays large drive sizes. Second to that, unless you're using enterprise level RAID cards (and possibly DROBO's) if you lose your motherboard/raid controller, you also lose your whole RAID5 array.

Drobo's are quite a good implementation of RAID5 as they use some enterprise level protections in a consumer device, but they don't get around the inherent problems of RAID5

RAID5 also has no silent error protection, so you could just be backing up corrupted data. If you are after an all in one RAID 5 style storage system, you're far better off building a ZFS based system, I'm not sure if there are any off the shelf products at this stage though.


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Eyal
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Jan 05, 2014 16:41 |  #25

RileyNZL wrote in post #16579425 (external link)
The problem with RAID 5 systems which most NAS's use (And drobo's) is that the platform is designed for high up time, not data protection. If a drive dies and you need to do a rebuild, the chance of a second drive failing while doing the rebuild is very high, especially with todays large drive sizes. Second to that, unless you're using enterprise level RAID cards (and possibly DROBO's) if you lose your motherboard/raid controller, you also lose your whole RAID5 array.

Mark0159 wrote in post #16578762 (external link)
If something where to happen to the NAS, even if the HDD's are ok then you can't access the data. This is the problem with a NAS system. The data is store on it's own file system so a different type of NAS can't access the files.

This is not a raid / HDD / hardware forum, so I will not get into it too much.
But to be simple clear, both of you are completely wrong.

Today's technology is way more advanced than how you describe it, which was true maybe 20 years no. Not now.

If your raid controller or motherboard dies, all of your data is still accessible using a different raid card or motherboard (the raid and data is stored on the HDDs along with the file structure, and not on the controller). Raid technology is universal (even it it varies slightly between controllers). You can move a raid between a motherboard and a dedicated controller if you know how. And this can be done without touching your data. Even if one of your raid drives is lost.
I can vouch for all of this. It works. Seamlessly almost if you know what you are doing.

Regarding chance to losing a second drive on a raid5 or a third on a raid6 or 2 on the same strip of raid 10, or 4 on raid 60, well, it can. Also your computer can die because of an electricity spike, or you can lose several days of data if your HDD dies without a backup. And your external drive can suddenly be dead when you want to restore something off it. **** happens.

But if you use several ways to save your data, you will be covered about 99.9% of the time from any problems.

Also, there are several different raids beside the normal ones. Disk extender, raid-z, unraid and other sort of software raid to spread files between HDDs (which some don't have an active backup if a HDD dies, but still not everything is gone).


Anyway, as this has gone way too much into hardware mode, I suggest two things (three if you want to go the extra mile):
1. Using 2 HDDs in raid 1 (which is just a mirror, no strips or parity). This way there is always a copy on the same computer. Using 2x4TB of drives will make sure that even if one dies, there is always a second with exactly the same data available. You will never be "offline" from your data.
2. Files you have edited and are important to you, to save on a second 2TB+ external drive once a week (which can be setup automatically, so you don't even have to do anything beside hooking the HDD and let it run its automatic backup).
3. If you really want to be sure, duplicate that external drive to a second one and save in a different place.

This whole exercise really depends on how much data you have.
I personally have 10TB of data at home (work related) and 2TB of data stored away which is more important to me (family, projects and so on which I will rip my already missing hair if I lose it).
You don't have to use enterprise level drives. They cost a fortune. There tons of solutions like the WD blues or reds, but green or barracuda can be just as fine if you run them in raid 1 and aren't expensive at all.

I hope this wall of text (which was supposed to be simple) is more clear.


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Mark0159
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Jan 05, 2014 23:25 |  #26

I wasn't talking about raid, I was talking about the file system used by nas devices. This has nothing to do with what raid setup one uses.


Mark
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Mike ­ K
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Jan 05, 2014 23:57 |  #27

Any tips on installing 3-4 TB drives into a Win 7 professional OS PC?

I remember over a year ago having to do some additional steps to have drives >2TB being readily recognized by the OS.
Mike K


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mike_d
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Jan 06, 2014 00:01 |  #28

Mike K wrote in post #16581347 (external link)
Any tips on installing 3-4 TB drives into a Win 7 professional OS PC?

I remember over a year ago having to do some additional steps to have drives >2TB being readily recognized by the OS.
Mike K

I think the only catch is that if you want to boot from a drive over 2TB, you must use GTP instead of MBR when partitioning and formatting in Disk Manager.




  
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Eyal
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Jan 06, 2014 02:44 |  #29

Mark0159 wrote in post #16581276 (external link)
I wasn't talking about raid, I was talking about the file system used by nas devices. This has nothing to do with what raid setup one uses.

This is the same exact thing. How do you think NAS devices work? They don't have a magical raid controller only for themselves.

They have a small CPU (usually intel atom or similar one) and either a controller (LSI usually same as the megaraid ones) or an intel PCH (which is compatible with all motherboards of today).

NAS devices are just a small PC. There is nothing special about them. They support raids just as special or motherboard controllers. You can move the HDDs from one to another if you need to.


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Eyal
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Jan 06, 2014 02:46 |  #30

Mike K wrote in post #16581347 (external link)
Any tips on installing 3-4 TB drives into a Win 7 professional OS PC?

I remember over a year ago having to do some additional steps to have drives >2TB being readily recognized by the OS.
Mike K

This is motherboard support issues.
Old motherboards you could needed to take some steps, and you could not install your OS on them. Today its a non issue. Support is complete. But as said, anything above 2TB need to be defined as GPT.


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