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Thread started 04 Jan 2014 (Saturday) 14:12
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1,2,3,4 TB drives?

 
mike_d
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Jan 08, 2014 10:29 |  #46

techhelp wrote in post #16587992 (external link)
This is bad advice; there's no logic in buying 4TB drives of different brands, 3TB drives are more reliable and it's better to stick with the same brand.

Hard drives tend to have good and bad batches. If you have two identical drives -- purchased at the same time -- and one fails, the probability of the other failing quickly thereafter are pretty high. Getting drives from two different makers minimizes the risk of near-simultaneous failures.

If the user needs as much space as possible, then 3TB drives are not the best choice unless they go to a RAID system.




  
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mike_d
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Jan 08, 2014 10:33 |  #47

techhelp wrote in post #16587992 (external link)
You're not going to get the benefits of uptime with a home computer because the HDDs you'll use are likely to be non hot swappable HDDs.

All SATA drives hot-swappable as long as the controller is configured for it. I've hot swapped non-enterprise SATA hard drives in my Synology. I've hot-swapped SATA drives in Windows boxes by taking the drive off-line in Disk Manager first and refreshing after.




  
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joeblack2022
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Jan 08, 2014 10:40 |  #48

flowrider wrote in post #16588080 (external link)
I vote techhelp for epic first post EVER!!!

Agreed, lots of good info in there.

techhelp wrote in post #16587992 (external link)
I disagree, it's not the best solution. It's one of the worst solutions and least future ready solution. If you keep a backup of your data on an external drive and computer technology changes a lot, you can still be sure to read the data on a USB drive reader.

Yep. As per the point I made about DVDs, eventually you are going to have to move your data onto technology that is more current or you risk losing access to it. Might as well keep it simple!


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phantelope
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Jan 08, 2014 10:48 |  #49

thanks guys, great info! 99% uptime is a non issue for me, I just want to have a "pretty reliable" backup at home. I backup to a 3rd portable drive I store at my wife's work and also backup with CrashPlan. Feeling pretty safe that way. My backup at home is really just there in case drive 1 dies and I don't want to wait for my wife to come home or deal with restoring from CrashPlan. And to protect against the chance of my main drive dying before I backed up to the external drive or CrashPlan is done backing up a bunch of photos. (right now I have an other 16 hrs to go to get everything from my xmas vacation up to their server)

I think I'll get two new 2 or 3 TB drives, will look at the WD reds mentioned. My current drives are iomega, have been working well for quite a while too.

ETA: just saw that the red drives seem to be only for internal use in a computer, could I use them in an enclosure. Can't quite squeeze them into my macbook pro or macmini :-)

I need external drives. Kind of prefer that anyway, since I can hide those easily somewhere in the house when I go on vacation.


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RTPVid
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Jan 08, 2014 11:55 |  #50

phantelope wrote in post #16588146 (external link)
...My current drives are iomega, have been working well for quite a while too.

iomega used to make quality stuff (I say "used to" only because I have no current experience with them. No implication otherwise intended.), but just fyi, they never did make hard drives. The hard drives inside your iomega external drives are buy-out drives from WD or someone (I really don't know who they used... maybe not even always the same manufacturer.) Again, this is just for your random knowledge. Obviously, your drives have served you well.

phantelope wrote in post #16588146 (external link)
...ETA: just saw that the red drives seem to be only for internal use in a computer, could I use them in an enclosure...

Yes.

Reds are made for RAID use, or for other multi-drive server use. IOW, what WD claims is the drives are engineered for 24/7 power-on use in a physical environment where they expect vibration, etc., from other drives, fans, and the like. (Just paraphrasing WD marketing). Heat management MIGHT be a problem in some external enclosures if you intend to leave the drive powered up for hours.


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mike_d
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Jan 08, 2014 12:09 |  #51

RTPVid wrote in post #16588304 (external link)
iomega used to make quality stuff (I say "used to" only because I have no current experience with them. No implication otherwise intended.), but just fyi, they never did make hard drives. The hard drives inside your iomega external drives are buy-out drives from WD or someone (I really don't know who they used... maybe not even always the same manufacturer.) Again, this is just for your random knowledge. Obviously, your drives have served you well.

Yes.

Reds are made for RAID use, or for other multi-drive server use. IOW, what WD claims is the drives are engineered for 24/7 power-on use in a physical environment where they expect vibration, etc., from other drives, fans, and the like. (Just paraphrasing WD marketing). Heat management MIGHT be a problem in some external enclosures if you intend to leave the drive powered up for hours.

Companies like Iomega who don't actually make drives just buy from whoever they can. Its like an independent gas station. You might gas from a Shell refinery one week or Chevron the next, depending on who makes them the best deal.

WD Red drives do run cooler than others. Synology displays the temp of each drive in the array and the Reds are consistently the coolest, usually about 2-3C cooler than Greens. At one time I had an old Seagate drive that was a good 9-10C hotter than the Red. So if I had to stick an internal drive in an enclosure, a Red would be my choice.




  
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phantelope
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Jan 08, 2014 12:49 |  #52

didn't know that, interesting. Looking at options from WD and Seagate right now, prices about equal.


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RTPVid
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Jan 08, 2014 12:58 |  #53

mike_d wrote in post #16588348 (external link)
...the Reds are consistently the coolest, usually about 2-3C cooler than Greens...

Interesting. And, counter-intuitive since WD Greens are supposedly designed for lower power consumption and have a lower spin rate (RPM).


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Jan 08, 2014 13:21 |  #54

RTPVid wrote in post #16588482 (external link)
Interesting. And, counter-intuitive since WD Greens are supposedly designed for lower power consumption and have a lower spin rate (RPM).

Isn't the main power saving feature of the Greens their ability to quickly spin up and down as needed? If they're put into constant use then I could easily see them building up more heat as their thermal design would have been engineered with the idea of them being essentially off for much of their 'active' time.


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adza77
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Jan 08, 2014 16:50 |  #55

You've got some great stuff there techhelp, well written!

However,

techhelp wrote in post #16587992 (external link)
You're still generally in trouble if you buy something like a Synology NAS and then it breaks and you wish to transfer your RAID array to a computer. Trying to swap a RAID array from a dedicated card to the motherboard's RAID system is also trouble.

... is not entirely true. I've used I/O Safe NAS devices. (Fireproof and waterproof NAS drives) which use a Synology system & raid.

Prior to going this route, I confirmed that it's possible to read data off these HDD's using another computer (live boot into Linux is one option) - after all, if there's a fire and the HDD's are saved, but the NAS unit is destroyed - what's the point if you can't get access to the data again. :)

You are right though that it's not a simple task to just transfer to another computer though and will require someone with some IT knowledge - but in a pinch it can be done without having to buy another Synology device. it's also another good reason why IMO a NAS device with RAID shouldn't be your only backup as well. :)


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mike_d
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Jan 08, 2014 17:24 |  #56

Luckless wrote in post #16588509 (external link)
Isn't the main power saving feature of the Greens their ability to quickly spin up and down as needed? If they're put into constant use then I could easily see them building up more heat as their thermal design would have been engineered with the idea of them being essentially off for much of their 'active' time.

Yes, the Greens will stop spinning very quickly if not accessed. This can cause chaos if used in RAID systems since if they don't come back online quickly enough, the RAID controller can mark the drive as failed. Then when it comes back, the controller wants to rebuild the "failed" array.

The newer Synology OS is supposed to automatically disable the Green power savings but I disabled it manually using a DOS utility from Western Digital. I initially populated by NAS with mostly Green drives because I was recycling drives from other uses. I haven't had any problems with the Greens, but I am slowly migrating to Reds as funds permit.

My temps are as follows:

Red 2TB - 28C
Green 1TB - 31C
Red 2TB - 28C
Red 1TB - 27C
Green 1TB - 30C

The NAS is more or less idle and ambient is 21C at the moment. This NAS has two 80mm fans in back.

I once had an old 1.5TB Seagate drive (1st generation) in this NAS that idled at around 38-39C. Ouch.




  
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Eyal
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Jan 09, 2014 02:17 |  #57

mike_d wrote in post #16588348 (external link)
Companies like Iomega who don't actually make drives just buy from whoever they can. Its like an independent gas station. You might gas from a Shell refinery one week or Chevron the next, depending on who makes them the best deal.

WD Red drives do run cooler than others. Synology displays the temp of each drive in the array and the Reds are consistently the coolest, usually about 2-3C cooler than Greens. At one time I had an old Seagate drive that was a good 9-10C hotter than the Red. So if I had to stick an internal drive in an enclosure, a Red would be my choice.

Reds aren't cooler when you look at the drive as it is.
The main difference is that reds have a different controller and read arm which helps the drive the need to seek less. They also spin in a consistent RPM which means less power to spin up.
Greens on the other hand spin slower and have more stop-start cycles, so the motor is working harder than on the reds since its RPM are vary constantly.
This means that reds in a raid system will require less movement, and produce less heat.

But (a bit but), if you run both drives in a single HDD enclosure and dump all of your data into them (just doing writing to the HDD at a single point), the greens will run less hot because they spin slower (and consistent as long as you write) and require less power to write the data.

I have 8x3TB of reds system, and they do require decent cooling when doing heavy work.
I also used to have a 8x2TB of green system, and they did not produce as much heat as long as they were running constantly.


Regarding putting a red drive into a mobile enclosure, this really depends on the case. Some can provide the needed watt for the HDD to run fine, some are designed only for a green type HDD which has half the watt to spin up, so a red will have a hard time there.


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Eyal
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Jan 09, 2014 02:20 |  #58

mike_d wrote in post #16589156 (external link)
Yes, the Greens will stop spinning very quickly if not accessed. This can cause chaos if used in RAID systems since if they don't come back online quickly enough, the RAID controller can mark the drive as failed. Then when it comes back, the controller wants to rebuild the "failed" array.

The newer Synology OS is supposed to automatically disable the Green power savings but I disabled it manually using a DOS utility from Western Digital. I initially populated by NAS with mostly Green drives because I was recycling drives from other uses. I haven't had any problems with the Greens, but I am slowly migrating to Reds as funds permit.

My temps are as follows:

Red 2TB - 28C
Green 1TB - 31C
Red 2TB - 28C
Red 1TB - 27C
Green 1TB - 30C

The NAS is more or less idle and ambient is 21C at the moment. This NAS has two 80mm fans in back.

I once had an old 1.5TB Seagate drive (1st generation) in this NAS that idled at around 38-39C. Ouch.

I suggest you update the firmware of your greens if you still have them and hadn't done so.
The spin up / stop time of the greens has been fixed about 6 months ago by WD (as well as the heat). What they did was add a delay to the spin down or stop of a few seconds. This way the HDD will not spin down or stop immediately after writing data in a raid.
This problem was mainly with old drives below the 3TB mark. The 3/4TB ones have a more improve firmware and a new arm. The motor is pretty much the same but the firmware helps it a bit.

I used to use a 6 or so years old perc5 controller with new HDD green drives. It never kicked a drive off the raid because of spin ups.


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Jan 09, 2014 07:32 as a reply to  @ post 16588080 |  #59

For those who have raised the "RAID IS TOO MUCH FOR HOME USE"....

A quick thought... I have a lot of Data, well over 20TB of photos and about 15TB of video; maybe another 10TB of stuff that if I lost it (like junk in the basement and garage I'd be happier in the long run)....

I've got 3 8 Drive Thecus 8800 PROs (and more drives for backup) which have 8 3TB or 8 2TB (the one with junk on it) drives in them. I only turn them on when I need them to save power and drive wear (like with 1Million hours MTBF per drive failures will be rare)...

I set them up as RAIDS with 7 useable drives each set up as RAID 5 (can lose one drive and it still works, and can use it as it rebuilds).

I did that for ONE Reason. If the system goes down as a RAID 0 (all drives put together as a single BIG drive... Lose one, lose all the data), the time to recopy the data back on the server is about 2 days. Its a PAIN to do, even hooking up another NAS similar to the first to it to reload it.

One other thing you'll see in my posts in the past is there are speed issues on RAID drives.

My NAS are relatively expensive ($1600 new without hard drives; cheaper used on EBAY), BUT they are FAST, easily runs 90MB/Sec copying. CONSUMER NAS (4TB for $300 with drives or such from Seagate etc) maybe 25 MB/Sec IF you are lucky... THAT ALSO IS USING THE SAME HARD DRIVES INSIDE, its the NAS Box that doesn't have the power to move the data.

Bandwith... PRO drives 3 users (or copying from 3 sources) no real change in speed. Consumer... Try that and the drive stops. 1 user OK, 2 slow. 3 about stopped. 4 Forget it... SPEED is related to NAS horsepower (processor) more than it is to RAM in the NAS. My drives with INTEL CORE 2 DUO processors (and I have a later 8900 which has an i3 Processor) absolutely kick the butts of the processors that come out of a CASIO wristwatch that they put in consumer NAS boxes. I've tried changing RAM (which is tough to do, since its very specific) on a lower level NAS I had and it didn't make a performance difference at all. Watch tests on the web for the NAS you are going to buy, their version of "its blazing fast" is RELATIVE. In a field of SMARTCARS, its may be a BIT faster, but its hardly a FORMULA ONE RACE CAR.... The slowest Formula One on the block is WAY faster than the fastest SMARTCAR or pickup truck....

Making your own RAID on your PC... My computer has tons of power and is RAID capable. I wouldn't trust a RAID built on it since it has a Chinese (or whatever) built mother board, with directions written in pig english and if something fails, its pretty much gone....

Get a RAID from a raid company.... I guess DROBO is OK. Simple drives for simple people. The offsite backup function looks awesome. But too many people complain. Really to ME, a lot of the problem has to come from the drives. Drobo USED to (and may still) advertise that you can use any combination of drives you have in their box. So you use an old 250GB drive, a 1 TB and a 2TB, with 3 different manufacturers....

THATS BEGGING for trouble as far as I'm concerned... (well past ASKING for trouble)... When a RAID writes, it wants to lay down its stripes of data in the same time frame. So a fast drive mixed with a slow drive is going t cause problems...

I'm sure results would be better if all the drives MATCHED.... Trust me all MY DRIVES in each NAS box are the same down to the model number and version of the firmware. So they should all perform the same. Never had a problem I could trace to that issue...

Last issue is as a RAID gets full (at 90% or more), they get what the manufacturers term "UNSTABLE" which means they do strange things without reason (like teenagers)... They drop off line, Raids don't get recognized, etc.... It sucks, but it happens..,

Still bottom line. I keep the real data on the NAS. If the computer gets a virus or Windows stops working or whatever at least I know the data is good and its safe. Never had a virus issue on the RAID yet... I don't leave anything on the desktop I can't make it without....

Got carried away there, but I hope someone learned something from this...

Mark H


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Jan 09, 2014 07:48 |  #60

I just bought a 4TB Seagate drive. It seems that everytime I buy one a get a larger capacity.


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