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Thread started 06 Nov 2013 (Wednesday) 12:57
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What do you NOT want to see on the new Canon 7D II

 
Luckless
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Feb 04, 2014 17:22 |  #136

venom3300 wrote in post #16663697 (external link)
wake up: video isn't free. you are paying for it.

Not really. Those who wanted and use video are who pay the lions share of the R&D costs for features like this in most cases. Companies as large as Canon or Nikon don't go into something like this without careful and ongoing market research.

What a product costs Canon to build isn't the largest factor in what price they stick on it when it gets to consumer's hands. The largest factor is what they think consumers are going to be willing to pay for it. So the cost of adding video, or the savings of not adding video, isn't likely to have much of an impact on the actual price of the hardware at the end of the day.

Adding video doesn't mean Canon ups their price because "Oh, it has video, therefore all the photographers with no interest in video will pay more ahahahahahaha!" (or would it be kekekekeke?) No, adding video means they can market that same camera at the same price to those who want video, but would probably pass on a camera without it. They can sell more cameras to those people, at the same market price as if it didn't have video, thereby making up for the loss involved in added video in the first place.

The goal is to maximize profits, and for consumer goods this is done by maximizing market share 9 times out of 10.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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Luckless
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Feb 04, 2014 17:28 |  #137

mpix345 wrote in post #16663800 (external link)
Now figure out what that other extraneous crap like flippy screens and live view and auto focus cost and we'll get to the honest price of a real camera.

You mean the flippy screen that is frequently used by photographers trying to capture shots at odd angles that would make the view finder awkward to use?

Which uses the live view feature, so that photographers can make use of that flippy screen when taking shots at odd angles...

And of course having autofocus during live view would be very useful to photographers trying to use live view on their flippy screen when taking photos at odd angles...


Would you like a camera that is made specifically to your specifications and designed to fit your hand perfectly? One of my friends works for an engineering firm doing stuff like that. PM me a critical features and dimensions list, and I'll talk to him to see which side of $500,000 your custom camera will come in at.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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hairy_moth
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Feb 04, 2014 17:39 |  #138

mpix345 wrote in post #16663800 (external link)
Now figure out what that other extraneous crap like flippy screens and live view and auto focus cost and we'll get to the honest price of a real camera.

No argument there, there is a cost to add the articulating screen; not everyone likes it, but there are still cameras without it.

There is also a cost to adding live view, but even many 'still' photographers, that aren't thrilled about video, love that feature for several reasons.
1. When using a tripod and taking a still photo, there is no better way to get dead on focus (that I am aware of) than using manual focus and live-view at maximum magnification.

2. All shutter related shake is eliminated. I can't find it with a search, but there was a post several years ago of a satellite trail (I think) that showed a long straight line with a little jiggle at the end. The only reason given for the jiggle was the camera-shake caused by the shutter. (I recall that the camera also had a bad pixel that showed up as red.)

auto-focus.. really? I thought all the Luddites gave up that fight in 1985!


7D | 300D | G1X | Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 | EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 | EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro | EF 85mm f/1.8 | 70-200 f/2.8L MkII -- flickr (external link)

  
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grayline
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Feb 04, 2014 17:48 |  #139

I could see if they sacrificed something for video but why not take off everything YOU dont like and maybe well have a nice little BORING Camera, dual cardslots is truly dumb but if you want a full framed professional then go buy one and spend the $5K or more.
Why not take off the Green Box ? jeez


Gear List :EOS 70D ,Sigma 50mm 1.4,Tamron 18-270, Canon 18-55,Canon HFM31,Canon SX280HS,Olympus E-10 ,

  
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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Feb 04, 2014 18:42 |  #140

The funny thing about this thread (perhaps 'funny' might be a tad insipid), is that is clearly a thread about what some of us don't want. It isn't a thread called "what topics do we not want people to post about in our forum". So if you don't like the thread topic, don't use the thread :) Simples :)

I now have a Camranger and with it, have actually found a minor reason to shooting video. Stealth videoing of a Badger that feeds in my mums garden. But there again, I still want video to be a minor almost afterthought on the camera :p


Call me Amanda please :)

  
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vengence
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Feb 04, 2014 19:13 as a reply to  @ hairy_moth's post |  #141

The thing about video is it actually increases the number of cameras they will sell, there will be more people that will buy a 70D because it can be used as both a DSLR AND a decent video camera that they will sell more than if they had left it off. As with anything, the more you make, the cheaper it is to make. The R&D on Video is something they spend either way, they do after all make an entire line of video cameras... :lol:




  
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blanex1
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Feb 04, 2014 20:33 |  #142

i think canon could scrap the square box! i mean who is using the fully auto mode any way these days and also they could leave out the video mode,there's not time to make a full movie any way what 15-20 min at the most!


canon 7d bg-e7 5d-mk3 1d-mk3 24-105-L 17-40 L 35/1.4 85/1.8 yougnuo 565 ex 580 ex and lots of other canon stuff.canon 70-200 2.8 L

  
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Feb 04, 2014 23:38 |  #143

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16429826 (external link)
I did mention several other things I didn't want, apart from video. Does anyone really want a flappy screen on the mkII?

I can't say that I'm interested in a 7D Mark 2, but I sure would like a "flappy screen" on any body I use (currently a 1D4).

There are many, many, many situations in which I could get a better composition if I were able to hold my camera high up over my head and shoot from that height. But this is not possible without a "flappy screen", as I want to compose the scene with great precision, and the only way I know of to do that is to have a screen that flips down so that my line of vision is perpendicular to the LCD.

If I hold my 1D4 way up high over my head, I have to view the LCD at a very obtuse angle, and at this angle I cannot see the scene well enough to aim/zoom with precision. A camera with a "flappy screen" would help me to create the images I see in my mind's eye better than a camera with no "flappy screen".


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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pwm2
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Feb 05, 2014 00:16 |  #144

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #16429882 (external link)
I wasn't seriously trying to make this a thread about the merits and demerits of video......honest.

Video on the list three times. You really did want us to spot it in the list.

Just that video makes the camera cheaper than Canon having to release two variants. And Canon have no choice but to supply video because it's a minimum requirement for lots of buyers.

Next thing - an articulated display is great if taking photos from strange angles. Especially for the part of the population that is a bit older. Like when you want to shoot your cat with the camera down at the eye level of the cat. Not too many manages to look in the viewfinder then. And it isn't comfortable to try to look at a fixed display either.

The only real disadvantage of lots of MP is that the memory cards fills up faster. But extra MP doesn't really hurt IQ. Each individual pixel might have more noise - but it will also print smaller. The total sensor will still capture about the same number of photons.

Briefly, I dislike video as I have been a professional Television Sound engineer for 30 years (BBC) and have worked closely, all my career with TV cameras. I believe in the right tool for the job. yes DSLRs can make inserts and movies in a film style, but they are no substitutes for most of the video that is recorded today using proper video equipment.

But that is totally irrelevant when a large number of people demand video. And you would have to pay extra if Canon would have to split all their models into "with video" and "without video".

A lot of this comes down to the ergonomics of the DSLR not the potential image quality (leaning building syndrome apart). I repeatedly made the Video reference in my bullet points to add a (failed) note of slight amusement and frippery :(

But your view on ergonomics is irrelevant too - if you don't use the video function then you don't need to worry about the ergonomics...


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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pwm2
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Feb 05, 2014 00:28 |  #145

Nathan wrote in post #16435518 (external link)
I don't get it. I hear about it, but I've never experienced it myself.

It depends on how the camera is carried - switch to a different type of strap and you might start experience it.


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Feb 05, 2014 00:39 |  #146
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I do not want (please Canon):

A cropped sensor.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :p


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Feb 05, 2014 00:46 |  #147

To answer the orignal question of thread, "The only thing I do NOT want to see in new 7D II is in first place NOT to see anything called ONE digit D with cropped sensor and return the name back to the rank of legendary TWO digits D to continue that impressive line of 20D without interfering with the fame and proparty of legendary Full Frame 5D.

But then that is not THE ONLY THING.
I really Do not want to see new replacement (Hopefully with a name that better describes the class with less confusion) be something better than either similar class Nikon or Sony. Hope the two years old story and history wont happen again.


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pwm2
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Feb 05, 2014 00:47 |  #148

Neilyb wrote in post #16439468 (external link)
If you want live view focusing why buy a DSLR in the first place? The simple fact is (has been stated by many users) the 70D has image quality just "as good as the 7D"... which means we have not moved on in 3 or 4 years, which for me = Canon super sensor focusing is holding back image quality. In fact that is yes, unfair, Canon sensors are holding back IQ period.

But you are drawing a conclusion that can't be drawn from that.

It isn't the dual-pixel solution that makes the 70D not show a significant improvement. The "front-end" of Canon sensors are good. It's the back-end - the read-out electronics - that is the big failure. That's the part that gives all the banding and have the camera fail to actually make use of all the dynamic range that the front-end of the sensor is actually able to capture.

And that is also why Canon can do well at high ISO. The front-end is doing well capturing photons. But for every stop higher ISO you lose a stop of dynamic range. And that means that at high ISO, the remaining dynamic range is less than the Canon fubar with banding.

The day Canon can produce their sensors in a better manufacturing plant and get the readout electronics smaller and closer to the individual pixels, you will also see improvements at low ISO.

But don't blame dual-pixel sensors, because you are missing the target.

If someone can explain to me how you take 1 pixel, split it in two and not created some kind of gap then I will concur. Then I am simply back to being pissed at Canon for not evolving their sensor tech. I am not alone here, I know enough wildlife pro's who refuse to use a Canon APS-c camera because they are not good enough in high ISO situations and would love to see a low MP APS-C which is all about IQ rather than keeping up with other manufacturers (or trying to).

You want low MP? Just scale down your image and you get a result that is almost perfectly matching what a lower-MP sensor would produce.

Notice that stops are defined as a factor two. While the light loss from the gaps are very small. Small enough that it doesn't really matter. If the sensor lose 5% of light, that would still only be 0.07 stop. And Canon read-out problems are probably losing us 2, 3 or maybe even 4 stops of dynamic range.


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Feb 05, 2014 00:57 |  #149

Footbag wrote in post #16467506 (external link)
You know... If the 70D can help you catch a few over the head shots at arms length then maybe you will find it useful. Maybe also for concertgoers.

It doesn't seem like the type of feature that one would come across frequently though. Or one that screams "we need to redesign a sensor for this".

Note that the world of DSLR is going away. We have had that mirror for quite a number of years just because it has been one of the simplest ways to get quick AF.

But the market will move towards mirror-less cameras. In which case you will need a different solution for fast AF. A dual-pixel solution can give you lightning-fast AF without any calibration errors. How can that not be a good thing?


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Feb 05, 2014 01:11 |  #150

venom3300 wrote in post #16663697 (external link)
you guys don't get it huh. Canon is a business. you aren't getting anything for free, even if it doesn't add hardware. they are still having to design the firmware/software to support different formats. but having said that it is clearly evident that canon IS spending money developing video technology: "dual pixel" AF system, bunch of STM lenses.

wake up: video isn't free. you are paying for it.

We do get it more than you think.

Canon has a video division producing video equipment. Do you think those guys should stop investing time in video functionality because the stills division buyers gets upset about video R&D work ongoing?

The DiGIC chips are used i DSLR cameras. And in P&S cameras. And in digital video camcorders What market shares do you think a P&S camera without video would have? You think the DiGIC chip cares if it is connected to a 18MP finger-nail sensor in a P&S or to a much larger sensor in a DSLR?

The DSLR gets video as a free spin-off from other parts of the Canon product range. But too many on this site can't for their life believe that Canon has video products, and so need to develop the required chip functionality and software for handling video.

Video is free, because video is a "must have to be able to sell". When you buy a radio, you don't pay extra for it having RDS. Radio chipsets do have RDS because radio chipset manufacturers has to include RDS functionality because the buyers of the chips expects them to have RDS. So the end user getting RDS functionality just depends on if the radio also happens to have a display, allowing the RDS information to be displayed or not.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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