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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 10 Feb 2014 (Monday) 09:06
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ETTL in P, Av, Tv vs. M Modes

 
digital ­ paradise
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Feb 10, 2014 11:49 |  #16

Here is a ISO chart someone tested and produced with just NEVEC only. We know the ratios for ISO 400 but no one has created the ISO 100 and 1600 ratios for flash yet. Not that it would matter as we can't do anything about it.

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By the way AFR and NEVEC is not well documented by Canon. NEVEC was discovered by users around 2003. Here is some good info on Canon Flash written by a 3rd party and considered sound by the Canon community. The AFR ratios came from this document.

http://photonotes.org/​articles/eos-flash/ (external link)

You can get more info in this section.

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Roxie2401
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Feb 10, 2014 12:32 as a reply to  @ digital paradise's post |  #17

Digital Paridise,

Thanks so much! Sort of overwhelming, but I'll dig through all the material.

If I get this right, with the exception of one body you mentioned, AFR is going to kick in - there is no turn on, turn off setting to select it or "fill flash."

I have always wonder why I see "pros" shooting outdoors, sports events close-ups, using flash in full sun - I assumed it was to reduce shadows on the face if the person was wearing a hat, etc. - but I never could figure out how the flash was being set to just "fill" and not blow out the scene.

This should have been a simple question - guess not. And no, I didn't go looking for a setting on my camera to set "EV=10" - yet.....




  
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digital ­ paradise
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Feb 10, 2014 13:05 |  #18

Yes it takes a bit to digest this stuff. The camera does not really tell you what the EV is that I know of. Maybe Gonzo or Wilt know. You sorta need to know the chart or have one in hand if you want to work that way and try to compensate for it. Not practical I don't think. There are better ways to do this. At least now you know what is going on.

I often use a flash, even direct flash in sunlight. Put peoples backs to the sun and again it is not fill, just less flash. If you just try to fill the shadows the non shadow areas get the same amount of light thus possibly overexposing sun lit portions of a face. The flash can't differentiate between shadows and highlights. There is where the word fill is misleading. It's just flash. There is either more or less and it illuminates the areas the light reaches evenly. There is more to it with multiple flashes or single flash placement off to the side for creativity, etc but it still works the same way.

Here is decent video on how to balance ambient light without a meter. A flash meter is the way to go but it can easily be done without it. Just a little more work. This is where you use FEC in ETTL or control flash power using M mode.

http://www.youtube.com …vEnAhkL0i38&fea​ture=feedf (external link)


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Feb 10, 2014 13:12 |  #19

Once you get past the above check out how you can change your ambient or background light without effecting flash exposure. You need to separate the two. Shutter speed effects background orambient exposure and aperture/flash power effect you subjects exposure.

Scroll down and look at the changes just adjusting the shutter speed.

http://neilvn.com …ues/dragging-the-shutter/ (external link)


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Feb 10, 2014 13:19 |  #20

Also look at post count #37. The author placed the subject under a shade tree. You have to be careful of sun spots leaking through. The nice bright ambient background was exposed for then the flash was added for subject exposure.

I never have success with linking directly to a post count. If someone wants to doctor up the link I'd appreciate it. Maybe some instructions would be nice as well.

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1281566


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Roxie2401
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Feb 10, 2014 13:41 |  #21

digital paradise wrote in post #16678891 (external link)
Also look at post count #37. The author placed the subject under a shade tree. You have to be careful of sun spots leaking through. The nice bright ambient background was exposed for then the flash was added for subject exposure.

I never have success with linking directly to a post count. If someone wants to doctor up the link I'd appreciate it. Maybe some instructions would be nice as well.

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1281566


Digital Paradise,

From the looks of these thread references, you have been over this territory before. I really appreciate your help. At this point, I'm not sure how to have the flash illuminate the face and not the background - like the little girl in the post #37 - but I'll get there. Thanks again.

BTW- is there a way on this site to "Search" in "logic terms? "fill + flash", "ETTL & Av" etc. I've looked in the advance search but can't find logic "and/or" terms.

Again, thanks for all your time today. Much appreciated.




  
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Feb 10, 2014 14:56 as a reply to  @ Roxie2401's post |  #22

Some earlier Canon cameras allowed you to disable the automatic flash reduction, but that ability seems to have disappeared with the introduction of E-TTL II. At Canon, they probably considered it no longer needed.


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Roxie2401
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Feb 10, 2014 15:07 |  #23

apersson850 wrote in post #16679131 (external link)
Some earlier Canon cameras allowed you to disable the automatic flash reduction, but that ability seems to have disappeared with the introduction of E-TTL II. At Canon, they probably considered it no longer needed.


Do you think this relates to using FEC & ETTL and they thought AFR was no longer necessary?




  
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Feb 10, 2014 15:16 |  #24

I was not aware of that. Forget about AFR and NEVEC as it will not help you. It was just information.

Your flash will more than likely light the background in your living room because of the confined space. It is impossible for the flash to light the background outdoors as it is no where near powerful enough.

Watch that video I posted a link to.

If you want to try this in AV that is an OK starting point.

Set to ISO 100

1. Shut your flash off and take a few test shots and see what your background looks like. Don't even
worry about your flash or how your subject exposure looks at this point. Just get the background the
way you want it. A very important thing to pay attention to. I don't know which camera you have
but as a starting point your shutter speed cannot exceed 1/160. Don't worry about why at this point,
it just can't. You may have to go with a very deep aperture like f16. Not great but it will get you
started. Use the biggest aperture you can while maintaining a shutter speed of 1/160 or less.

2. When you are happy with the background turn your flash on. Take a picture and look at your subjects
exposure. If it looks good then you are done. If over or under exposed then adjust the FEC on your
flash until your subject exposure is good. Don't worry about the background because you set that up
in step 1.

I still need to know what camera you have. If your shutter speed exceeds 1/160 it will cause problems. If you were getting bad blown out shots that might be why. AV can trick you because you think things are OK but if the shutter is too fast a warning light will flash in the viewfinder.

Outdoors in AV you may run into that problem. Shutter speed exceeds 1/160 without the flash turned on because the ambient is too bright. You really need to close down the aperture. If that happens just put the camera in P mode and follow the same steps until you get a good picture. There is more to that but these are just your first steps.

Then there is always manual mode if you want to try it. Same process as in steps 1 and 2 and it is just like shooting in P mode. P mode sets your shutter and aperture. In M mode you do it. In manual just play with the shutter and aperture until you get the background the way you want it. Again shut the flash off and don't worry about the subject. You shutter still cannot exceed 1/160. When you get it the way you want to turn the flash on and use FEC to fine tune the exposure of our subject.

As for fill flash. This is what it actually means but can be interpreted incorrectly. AV mode as an example. You pretty much have enough ambient exposure to get a decent exposure of your subject because your light meter is centred. The flash just adds a bit of light or fill to enhance the entire subject exposure. It does not pick and choose between shadows and highlights to give you a good exposures. The light is distributed evenly across the entire subject.

This is opposite to dark indoor lighting where the flash is the main source of light, not just a bit to enhance the subject exposure. There is very little ambient light illuminating your subject so the flash does all the work. That is not fill.

You should try this in the shade until you get used to it before you move on.


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Feb 10, 2014 15:28 |  #25

I'm leaving in 5 minutes. I'll get back to you when I know which camera you have.


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Feb 10, 2014 15:48 |  #26

Roxie2401 wrote in post #16679170 (external link)
Do you think this relates to using FEC & ETTL and they thought AFR was no longer necessary?

No, but E-TTL II is supposed to be more clever in figuring out how to use the available flash power by itself.


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Feb 10, 2014 15:59 |  #27

digital paradise wrote in post #16679210 (external link)
I'm leaving in 5 minutes. I'll get back to you when I know which camera you have.


Hi - I have Canon 7D & 5D MK III and just got a new (whew) 600EX-RT.

I appreciate your time - no hurry in responding. Be interesting in your comments though.

Thanks so much!




  
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Feb 10, 2014 16:28 |  #28

I'm watching this thread with interest (and some confusion), I also have a new 600EX-RT (my first ever speedlite).


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Feb 10, 2014 18:03 |  #29

Roxie2401 wrote in post #16679170 (external link)
Do you think this relates to using FEC & ETTL and they thought AFR was no longer necessary?

NEVEC first was discussed prior to 2004. Apparently one document mentions that the Elan 7E (c. 2000) has NEVEC.

Back in 2001, on dpreview forums AFR was discussed.
"Andy Miles wrote:
This article mentions a custom function that disables the ambient
light balancing:

'All EOS cameras have a built-in program called "automatic flash
reduction control" that varies flash exposure level according to
ambient light level. It applies standard flash exposure (no
compensation) in dark conditions, and reduced flash exposure in
bright conditions. This program was designed to provide
natural-looking flash fill in most bright conditions, so that even
a beginner without experience could achieve pro-quality results.
However, any flash exposure compensation set by the user on the
camera or Speedlite is applied on top of, net instead of, automatic
flash reduction contral. This may cause unexpected results in
bright conditions unless the automatic flash reduction is taken
into account. Some EOS cameras* are equipped with a Custom
Function** which shuts off automatic flash reduction central, thus
applying a standard flash exposure level in any lighting condition.
We recommend the use of this Custom Function' "

http://eosseries.ifran​ce.com …/flashwork_fonc​tions.html (external link)
(apparently in 2001 the above link worked, but it is no longer active)

It also seems to be a feature listed by Canon outside USA, but not by Canon USA. In some current information (copyright 2014)

"Auto flash reduction

"You need to be careful when applying flash exposure compensation to cameras that use E-TTL metering. When you shoot in bright light, they assume that you are using flash for fill-in, and automatically provide flash reduction. If you apply further reduction, the fill-in effect may be too weak. You need to get to know your camera so that experience will tell you when to apply compensation and when to leave well alone.

"Some EOS models offer a custom function that disables automatic flash reduction. This has two uses. First, it allows you to take control of flash reduction in all situations − you don’t have to guess whether or not flash reduction has been applied − you know it hasn’t. Secondly, you can turn off the auto reduction when photographing backlit subjects. Here, you need a good burst of light from the Speedlite to add detail to the shadow areas of the subject."


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Feb 10, 2014 18:15 |  #30

UKseagull wrote in post #16679341 (external link)
I'm watching this thread with interest (and some confusion), I also have a new 600EX-RT (my first ever speedlite).

What parts are throwing you off.


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