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Thread started 27 Jan 2014 (Monday) 19:59
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Sony troubles..

 
Shadowblade
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Feb 15, 2014 11:44 |  #31

watt100 wrote in post #16691131 (external link)
until the Chinese copy it

Copying relatively unsophisticated circuit boards is one thing. Copying nanometer-scale electronics and microlens arrays on large silicon wafers is something else entirely.

Also, the Chinese couldn't make a good lens if they tried.




  
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liupublic
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Feb 15, 2014 11:52 |  #32

Shadowblade wrote in post #16691321 (external link)
Copying relatively unsophisticated circuit boards is one thing. Copying nanometer-scale electronics and microlens arrays on large silicon wafers is something else entirely.

Also, the Chinese couldn't make a good lens if they tried.

Most low to mid end nikon lens are made in China. Good quality and low cost. Manufacturing country has little to do with goods quality. Willingness to make good quality within low price has to do w good business practice and local cost of doing business.

One of worse I have owned is mb c280 in the 90s. High cost and low reliably with world reknown German engineering.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 15, 2014 12:18 |  #33

liupublic wrote in post #16691345 (external link)
Most low to mid end nikon lens are made in China. Good quality and low cost. Manufacturing country has little to do with goods quality. Willingness to make good quality within low price has to do w good business practice and local cost of doing business.

One of worse I have owned is mb c280 in the 90s. High cost and low reliably with world reknown German engineering.

The factories might be based there (and in Thailand) for the cheap labour (although it's getting more expensive), but the lens designs and the fabrication units most certainly are not.

Nikon/Canon/Sony making things in China, using designs and equipment from elsewhere, is a far cry from a native Chinese-designed product making a significant splash in the marketplace.




  
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liupublic
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Feb 15, 2014 13:00 |  #34

Shadowblade wrote in post #16691412 (external link)
The factories might be based there (and in Thailand) for the cheap labour (although it's getting more expensive), but the lens designs and the fabrication units most certainly are not.

Nikon/Canon/Sony making things in China, using designs and equipment from elsewhere, is a far cry from a native Chinese-designed product making a significant splash in the marketplace.

Most of the IC electronics designed are done in southeast Asia as well. Most of camera IC design works are considered low tech or low-mid volume work by digital design company such as Intel, Samsung and Qualcomm. The mid to high end work focus on server CPU, mobile CPU/GPU and SIC are done in Korea, Taiwan and US. Manufactured mostly in the same countries. Process integration are generally done locally. In fact, although design is critical. Process integration (making of the chip) is just as difficult.

What was considered high end work 3-5 yrs ago are now all done oversea. Canon's chip/design are ~10yrs behind high end folks. Only Sony's sensor division is doing some very innovative work.

In short, there is a reason why China is the #2 economy in the world. China has it covered in both low-mid end. As Chinese labor cost increases in the next 20 yrs, China will soon move up to mid-high end as well to get better margin. Similar to Samsung/LG in Korea. Similar to Sony before that in Japan.

Lastly, the idea behind this design is far more critical than manufacturing is simply silly. Both are critical for success of any product. In the last 20 yrs, I think one of the best example is Motorola in tech space. Tons of patent and tons of market share. Can't make enough profitable product to save itself.


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pwm2
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Feb 15, 2014 13:51 |  #35

1Tanker wrote in post #16644209 (external link)
It wouldn't be good for Canon customers, but awesome for Canon. Nikon would be left behind by Canon, without those lovely Sony sensors. ;)

Last year, Sony invested hugely in improving the production capability of the Exmor sensors. That part of the company is doing great. And will continue to do great - at least until Canon have managed to put up something that can compete.

Right now that factory is running all it can to recover the investment, and Sony management is rubbing their hands.

The problem here is that Sony has a large number of other areas that are doing poorly. They can't forever do Robin Hood stunts and take from the prosperous parts of the organization just to cover the losses of the weak divisions.


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mag10
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Feb 17, 2014 02:34 |  #36

Shadowblade wrote in post #16691321 (external link)
Copying relatively unsophisticated circuit boards is one thing. Copying nanometer-scale electronics and microlens arrays on large silicon wafers is something else entirely.

Also, the Chinese couldn't make a good lens if they tried.

Shadowblade wrote in post #16691412 (external link)
The factories might be based there (and in Thailand) for the cheap labour (although it's getting more expensive), but the lens designs and the fabrication units most certainly are not.

Nikon/Canon/Sony making things in China, using designs and equipment from elsewhere, is a far cry from a native Chinese-designed product making a significant splash in the marketplace.

You realize that there are fabs in China owned by Chinese companies that are much more sophisticated than the dated fabs that Canon still uses right? For example, Canon's fabs that manufacture its full frame sensors use an outdated 500nm process while SMIC, a mainland Chinese foundry, has fabs using 90nm processes.

Of course, the SMIC fabs use technology and machinery from outside of China, and Canon's, Nikon's and Sony's fabs use technology and machinery from outside of Japan. My point is this: in this day and age, you have to be pretty ignorant to suggest a specific country or ethnicity is not capable of making or designing something. The reality is that everything these days is a combination of know-how and technology from all over the world, designed by engineers from all over the world.


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pwm2
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Feb 17, 2014 02:47 |  #37

mag10 wrote in post #16695462 (external link)
The reality is that everything these days is a combination of know-how and technology from all over the world, designed by engineers from all over the world.

The main thing is when a country have a well-established grid of universities, has access to investment money, and have enough population that can afford buying premium-grade products.

When a country fulfills the above requirements, they have reached the level where it is meaningful for them to start producing own high-tech products. They still have the ability long before, but it just isn't meaningful to try without having the buyers. And foreign-educated skilled labour can't start until someone believes in them and invests the money.

China already have all the required infrastructure for going wild and crazy with new high-tech products, even if they also still have cheap labour and can perform low-cost production for customers expecting low-quality products.


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nekrosoft13
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Feb 18, 2014 17:50 |  #38
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maverick75 wrote in post #16645553 (external link)
Sony makes stuff for Canon also, the back of my OEM Canon charger says Sony on it.
I've never taken a Canon camera apart but I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their stuff in there as well.

some point and shoots have sony LCDs.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 19, 2014 01:16 |  #39

pwm2 wrote in post #16695474 (external link)
The main thing is when a country have a well-established grid of universities, has access to investment money, and have enough population that can afford buying premium-grade products.

When a country fulfills the above requirements, they have reached the level where it is meaningful for them to start producing own high-tech products. They still have the ability long before, but it just isn't meaningful to try without having the buyers. And foreign-educated skilled labour can't start until someone believes in them and invests the money.

China already have all the required infrastructure for going wild and crazy with new high-tech products, even if they also still have cheap labour and can perform low-cost production for customers expecting low-quality products.

They totally lack any kind of innovation or any sense of aesthetics - both very important in high-end goods.

Looking at what they produce, they're very good at taking what already exists and manufacturing it on a huge scale, sometimes with some minor tweaks, e.g. making it cheaper or simpler to produce, or a minor performance improvement. The resulting product performs to specification - and that's just about all you can say. It does the job. It tends to be completely utilitarian, with no sense of aesthetics or design (obviously not particularly applicable to cameras, but very applicable in things like home appliances and cars). Alternatively, it's something designed on an aesthetic level by someone from outside China, then mass-produced there.

But when was the last time you saw an innovative new Chinese product - a Chinese iPhone, 5D2 or Model T Ford? Not in the past hundred years - it's always someone else's idea, copied and manufactured on a huge scale. When did you last see a product desirable for its style as well as function, that was both designed and produced in China, by Chinese-trained and educated people - a Chinese Maserati, IWC or Burberry? From what I see - and I've dealt with a lot of Chinese-trained staff - the education system there doesn't lend itself to innovation or aesthetics, merely to speed, efficiency and economy in carrying out someone else's idea. The engineers and web designers trained there are very quick and very efficient into putting someone else's design together and getting it working. But put them to work in designing something original, or even coming up with an original concept, and the results are, almost invariably, poor. And it's going to take a lot more than a burgeoning middle class to change that.




  
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pwm2
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Feb 19, 2014 03:00 |  #40

They totally lack any kind of innovation or any sense of aesthetics - both very important in high-end goods.

Different cultures have different views on aesthetics.

But to think that a specific national population would be different than other countries population and totally lack any kind of innovation is absolutely, totally rubbish.

Somehow, you really have failed to grasp the issue with incentives. When the biggest incentives comes from copying, then people copy. When the biggest incentives comes from innovation, then people innovate.

When the salary is low, you make more money from copying. When the salary gets high enough, then you can't sell copies so you need to switch to produce innovative products.

It's enough with 10 innovative persons to take on the whole world in a market segment, so it doesn't much matter if the majority of the population grew up in a situation where innovation wasn't awarded.

But for some reason, prejudice really is wide spread...


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andrikos
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Feb 19, 2014 03:21 |  #41

pwm2 wrote in post #16700842 (external link)
But for some reason, prejudice really is wide spread...

Agreed.
The same garbage was spewed towards the Japanese.
And then the Koreans...

History repeats itself.


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watt100
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Feb 19, 2014 07:18 |  #42

Shadowblade wrote in post #16700745 (external link)
But when was the last time you saw an innovative new Chinese product - a Chinese iPhone, 5D2 or Model T Ford? Not in the past hundred years - it's always someone else's idea, copied and manufactured on a huge scale. When did you last see a product desirable for its style as well as function, that was both designed and produced in China, by Chinese-trained and educated people - a Chinese Maserati, IWC or Burberry? From what I see - and I've dealt with a lot of Chinese-trained staff - the education system there doesn't lend itself to innovation or aesthetics, merely to speed, efficiency and economy in carrying out someone else's idea. The engineers and web designers trained there are very quick and very efficient into putting someone else's design together and getting it working. But put them to work in designing something original, or even coming up with an original concept, and the results are, almost invariably, poor. And it's going to take a lot more than a burgeoning middle class to change that.

not sure about this, probably more than a few non-Chinese manufacturers are worried.
Sure, Yongnuo didn't invent the flash but they brought flash affordability to the masses




  
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andrikos
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Feb 19, 2014 08:01 |  #43

Shadowblade wrote in post #16700745 (external link)
They totally lack any kind of innovation or any sense of aesthetics - both very important in high-end goods.

Looking at what they produce, they're very good at taking what already exists and manufacturing it on a huge scale, sometimes with some minor tweaks, e.g. making it cheaper or simpler to produce, or a minor performance improvement. The resulting product performs to specification - and that's just about all you can say. It does the job. It tends to be completely utilitarian, with no sense of aesthetics or design (obviously not particularly applicable to cameras, but very applicable in things like home appliances and cars). Alternatively, it's something designed on an aesthetic level by someone from outside China, then mass-produced there.

But when was the last time you saw an innovative new Chinese product - a Chinese iPhone, 5D2 or Model T Ford? Not in the past hundred years - it's always someone else's idea, copied and manufactured on a huge scale. When did you last see a product desirable for its style as well as function, that was both designed and produced in China, by Chinese-trained and educated people - a Chinese Maserati, IWC or Burberry? From what I see - and I've dealt with a lot of Chinese-trained staff - the education system there doesn't lend itself to innovation or aesthetics, merely to speed, efficiency and economy in carrying out someone else's idea. The engineers and web designers trained there are very quick and very efficient into putting someone else's design together and getting it working. But put them to work in designing something original, or even coming up with an original concept, and the results are, almost invariably, poor. And it's going to take a lot more than a burgeoning middle class to change that.

CTRL-F

Find: Chinese
Replace: Australian

There, I made it personal for you.
Feeling offended yet?


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Shadowblade
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Feb 19, 2014 08:55 |  #44

andrikos wrote in post #16701144 (external link)
CTRL-F

Find: Chinese
Replace: Australian

There, I made it personal for you.
Feeling offended yet?

Nope. I'd fully agree.

All the Australian innovators, inventors and the like have gone overseas to work in other countries which present more opportunities to pursue, and are more receptive to, new ideas.




  
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mag10
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Feb 19, 2014 09:56 |  #45

Shadowblade wrote in post #16700745 (external link)
They totally lack any kind of innovation or any sense of aesthetics - both very important in high-end goods.

Looking at what they produce, they're very good at taking what already exists and manufacturing it on a huge scale, sometimes with some minor tweaks, e.g. making it cheaper or simpler to produce, or a minor performance improvement. The resulting product performs to specification - and that's just about all you can say. It does the job. It tends to be completely utilitarian, with no sense of aesthetics or design (obviously not particularly applicable to cameras, but very applicable in things like home appliances and cars). Alternatively, it's something designed on an aesthetic level by someone from outside China, then mass-produced there.

But when was the last time you saw an innovative new Chinese product - a Chinese iPhone, 5D2 or Model T Ford? Not in the past hundred years - it's always someone else's idea, copied and manufactured on a huge scale. When did you last see a product desirable for its style as well as function, that was both designed and produced in China, by Chinese-trained and educated people - a Chinese Maserati, IWC or Burberry? From what I see - and I've dealt with a lot of Chinese-trained staff - the education system there doesn't lend itself to innovation or aesthetics, merely to speed, efficiency and economy in carrying out someone else's idea. The engineers and web designers trained there are very quick and very efficient into putting someone else's design together and getting it working. But put them to work in designing something original, or even coming up with an original concept, and the results are, almost invariably, poor. And it's going to take a lot more than a burgeoning middle class to change that.

There are ignorant people and then there are bigots. You sir, seem to be both.


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