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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Accessories 
Thread started 16 Feb 2014 (Sunday) 15:18
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Disaster (nearly) today with BlackRapid

 
ten31
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Feb 24, 2014 23:00 |  #76

Nathan wrote in post #16715033 (external link)
I think people are saying that the sling style strap encourages accidental release of the camera from the lens because of how the camera hangs and bumps on the legs and body or other... that's the best I could come up with.

When people think that I am like:

IMAGE: http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Confused-Jacksonville-Jaguars-fan-in-stands.gif


Even if it were true, it is still operator error! Either use equipment that works for you, or learn to mitigate the risks.

Canon EOS 6D | 24-105mm f/4 IS USM | 85mm f/1.8 | 430EX II | Mefoto Roadtrip | RC6 remote

  
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Lastblackdog
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Feb 25, 2014 01:09 |  #77

ten31 wrote in post #16715218 (external link)
When people think that I am like:

[GIFS ARE NOT RENDERED IN QUOTES]


Even if it were true, it is still operator error! Either use equipment that works for you, or learn to mitigate the risks.

So you are saying that you are the "know-it-all" in the crowd? OK, I believe you. Everyone else is wrong and are out of step with you.

All along I have said that it is the concept of how the BR works that failed and not the strap itself. I started a tread on the same subject over the Christmas period titled "Camera fell off lens" which did not evoke as much response as this one did. Go figure.

When my kids were small we allowed them to stand up in the back of the car whereas now kids are protected by seat-belts and air bags. I didn't have to experience an accident for myself to know that this is good - I learnt from the experience of others.

Canon and BR users can do the same.


http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mrmcc1954/ (external link)

  
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ten31
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Feb 25, 2014 02:51 |  #78

Lastblackdog wrote in post #16715422 (external link)
So you are saying that you are the "know-it-all" in the crowd? OK, I believe you. Everyone else is wrong and are out of step with you.

All along I have said that it is the concept of how the BR works that failed and not the strap itself. I started a tread on the same subject over the Christmas period titled "Camera fell off lens" which did not evoke as much response as this one did. Go figure.

When my kids were small we allowed them to stand up in the back of the car whereas now kids are protected by seat-belts and air bags. I didn't have to experience an accident for myself to know that this is good - I learnt from the experience of others.

Canon and BR users can do the same.

I am not saying I know it all, I just don't understand how this even happens once the camera is hanging on the strap. I am incredible active and have never had a problem with the camera.

Perhaps you can explain, how the concept of the BR failed? Bouncing and hitting the release? Sounds incredibly implausible.


edit: I just went back and reread your first reply to the OP. You think your camera hit off your phone. How did that happen? Was the camera secured with the slides? Your argument is all operator error if that is true. "OMG I used this in a way that I never thought it would be affected. The inanimate strap is to blame because I didn't consider this one aspect of things."


Canon EOS 6D | 24-105mm f/4 IS USM | 85mm f/1.8 | 430EX II | Mefoto Roadtrip | RC6 remote

  
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Lastblackdog
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Feb 25, 2014 03:10 |  #79

ten31 wrote in post #16715536 (external link)
I am not saying I know it all, I just don't understand how this even happens once the camera is hanging on the strap. I am incredible active and have never had a problem with the camera.

Perhaps you can explain, how the concept of the BR failed? Bouncing and hitting the release? Sounds incredibly implausible.

How I think it happened to me.

a) BR strap attached to the tripod collar which was positioned in the normal below the lens configuration.
b) Strap over left shoulder and camera on the right hip.
c) In this configuration the camera (Canon 5D III) swings upside down with the camera grip away from your body but easily accessible to pick up with your right hand when needed.
d) In this configuration the body and the lens bounce off your body when you walk. If I am not using my hands for anything else then I tend to cradle the kit to my hip to stop too much bounce.
e) if you set your camera up in this configuration you will see that the lens release button is now facing backwards and against your hip.
f) I carry my iPhone in my right hand jeans pocket and I believe that the lens release button bounced of this hard surface when I walked along.
g) If you did set your camera up like this you will see that the bulk of the camera weight is away from your hip so that when the lens button is pressed the weigh of the camera turns the body anti-clockwise releasing the body from the lens.
h) The 5D III / 70-200 f2.8 II is a loose fit unlike the 24-70 so it is possible for nature to do it's worst.

This happened to me twice. The first time I assumed that it was operator error and that I somehow managed to press the release clip while getting out of the car in very bad weather. However, the second time it happened a few days later I was just walking through a local park and the lens had been on the camera for about an hour when it happened. You could call this second time a "design of experiment" moment!

The irony was that the tether I had ordered on the good advice of the contributors here on this forum arrived the very next day. £300 ($450) poorer I am a bit wiser.

Just to repeat again - the BR strap did not fail. It is the concept of using a strap in this configuration (any brand) without a secondary tether could lead to disaster.


http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mrmcc1954/ (external link)

  
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Nathan
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Feb 25, 2014 08:55 |  #80

ten31 wrote in post #16715218 (external link)
Even if it were true, it is still operator error! Either use equipment that works for you, or learn to mitigate the risks.

I agree. I'm on your side of this argument.


Taking photos with a fancy camera does not make me a photographer.
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digital ­ paradise
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Feb 25, 2014 09:12 |  #81

pwm2 wrote in post #16714743 (external link)
The original neck straps are totally impossible to use for a number of people - they just can't stand the main of the pressure on the neck. And keeping the strap over just one shoulder isn't a good solution either.

So yes - the camera manufacturers really should consider much better hardpoints on the camera gear.

I can't stand my camera banging against my chest if I'm walking around a lot. It is like the water drop on the forehead torture. I don't even take the neck strap out of the packaging when buy a new body. Manual either to - I use on line manuals. People feel like they are buying a brand new camera when I sell.


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gakoenig
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Feb 25, 2014 09:51 |  #82

It is the concept of using a strap in this configuration (any brand) without a secondary tether could lead to disaster.

Do you have any data to back this up?

I have data; and it doesn't support your position. I've sold thousands of sling style straps over the last 4 years. We've never had a customer contact us saying their lens has just plum fell off their camera.

BR has sold *tens of thousands* of straps. They are the 10,000lb gorilla in the camera strap racket. I've seen 2-3 reports of lenses falling off of cameras carried by sling straps, all BRs. By the same token, I've ALSO heard of lenses falling off of cameras where the strap wasn't specified. Even lenses detaching fully or partially on cameras mounted to tripods.

I think a rigorous statistical analysis would discover that the strap has little bearing on a lens falling off of a camera. User error is likely the leading cause - either not fully seating the lens to lock or inadvertently hitting the lens release button and unlocking the lens either immediately or just a little before an accidental lens release.

Here's the real test though - are sling style straps causing lens mount failures? Are the mating lugs on the lens bent? Is the locking pin damaged? Is the body mount collar detached from the body or bent?

This isn't some black magic voodoo; failures happen for traceable reasons. If there is no damage to the above components, than the only way the system could release the lens is from the lens release button being depressed. Failures of the above components would also make lens tethers next to useless - while the glass might be OK, a damaged bayonet mount on the body or lens will be a pretty high dollar repair.

The fact is; Canon and Nikon are selling (between them) something on the order of 35 Million SLR camera a year. Cumulatively, that puts hundreds of millions of cameras out in service; people are going to hit the wrong button at the wrong time and not know it. If the average life of a modern SLR is 5 years, that 1 in 1 Million chance of an accidental release is gonna happen 175 times a year. Just because a few of those incidents get reported on camera forums does not a disaster in the making make.


http://lu.ma (external link), greg@luma-labs.com (external link)

  
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solara
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Feb 25, 2014 11:05 |  #83

gakoenig wrote in post #16716146 (external link)
Do you have any data to back this up?

User error is likely the leading cause - either not fully seating the lens to lock or inadvertently hitting the lens release button and unlocking the lens either immediately or just a little before an accidental lens release.

If you read more carefully you'll see that's what they're saying is the cause - the strap, the way it attaches to the lens, somehow allows the lens release button to be pressed easier - so yes, "inadvertently hitting the lens release button" is the cause. Some are saying the design of the strap increases the likelihood of that happening.

If it is true that the strap, while attached to the lens, increases the likelihood that the lens release button will be pressed, thus releasing the lens, and the body then goes crashing down on the pavement, then I personally would consider it a flawed design, especially if BR claims that the strap can be attached to the lens itself. Of course those defending BR will say that BR can't cover for all possibilities - which is true. But other companies are smart enough to include a second tether point in their strap system.

So whether BR is responsible or not, or whether it's a flawed system or not, the fact is, some users are reporting that the lens release button gets pressed. The smart and not so arrogant companies then try to mitigate that risk by including a small secondary attachment point. BR has their tether kit so they acknowledge that there is a risk, however small it is.

Since I spent so much money on my camera and lens, I decided to buy the Joby tether strap (i like looping the cord around the camera attachment point instead of forcing a ring through it like the BR kit (faster to loop), and I like that the joby has a locking carabiner - BR's tether kit does not appear to be locking ). I've never had my BR strap release accidentally, but for 10 bucks it's cheap insurance.


5D III, 7D | 17-55 f/2.8 | 16-35 f/4 | 24-105 f/4 | 85 f/1.8 | 135 f/2 | 70-200 f/4 IS | 580EX II | YN-560 | Manfrotto 190XPROB+498RC2

  
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jonneymendoza
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Feb 25, 2014 15:48 |  #84

Nathan wrote in post #16715033 (external link)
I think people are saying that the sling style strap encourages accidental release of the camera from the lens because of how the camera hangs and bumps on the legs and body or other... that's the best I could come up with.

which is still nothing to do with the strap but to do with the camera's release mechanism of a lens.

what if you are just holding the camera and accidently push the release button and your lens falls off? who would you blame then lol.


Canon 5dmkIII | Canon 85L 1.2 | Sigma 35mm ART 1.4|Canon 16-35mm L 2.8 |Canon 24-70mm L f2.8 | Canon 70-200mm F2.8L MK2 | Canon 430EX MK2 Flickr (external link)

  
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solara
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Feb 25, 2014 19:31 |  #85

jonneymendoza wrote in post #16717099 (external link)
which is still nothing to do with the strap but to do with the camera's release mechanism of a lens.

what if you are just holding the camera and accidently push the release button and your lens falls off? who would you blame then lol.

So you're blaming the location of the lens release button, and not the strap? So Canon should go back and move the button, even though Canon came out with that design before BR came out with the design for the strap? In your dreams. :)

As to your question, of course if you pressed the button with your own fingers, then you're responsible. If the strap pushes the button during normal usage, then is it not the strap that caused it? But of course you blame the location of the button and not the strap. Like blaming the sun for giving you a sunburn - I don't care if the sun came before me, I got a sunburn from being outside, the sun needs to be moved! *smirk*


5D III, 7D | 17-55 f/2.8 | 16-35 f/4 | 24-105 f/4 | 85 f/1.8 | 135 f/2 | 70-200 f/4 IS | 580EX II | YN-560 | Manfrotto 190XPROB+498RC2

  
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Scrumhalf
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Feb 25, 2014 21:18 |  #86

I'm with Greg... I wore my 6D on my Luma Cinch 2 for over 2 hours this evening, walking slowly and briskly, bending over, crouching, basically occupying every position a photographer might reasonably assume, and giving full opportunity to put the camera in a disadvantageous position as far as accidental lens relese is concerned. I constantly checked but not once did the Cinch allow the camera to swivel in a way that put the strap against the lens release button or put the button against the body. I can only conclude that the problem isn't generically with sling straps but with specific implenentations of the concept.


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If I don't get the shots I want with the gear I have, the only optics I need to examine is the mirror on the bathroom wall. The root cause will be there.

  
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solara
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Feb 25, 2014 22:06 |  #87

@scrumhalf was your luma attached to the lens or camera body?


5D III, 7D | 17-55 f/2.8 | 16-35 f/4 | 24-105 f/4 | 85 f/1.8 | 135 f/2 | 70-200 f/4 IS | 580EX II | YN-560 | Manfrotto 190XPROB+498RC2

  
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Scrumhalf
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Feb 25, 2014 22:38 |  #88

solara wrote in post #16717950 (external link)
@scrumhalf was your luma attached to the lens or camera body?

One end of the strap attaches to the left strap lug of the camera (looking from the back). The other end attaches to the tripod foot of the lens if I am using my 100-400L. Otherwise for all smaller lenses including my 70-200 Mk II, the other end attaches to the strap lug of the camera's tripod mount at the bottom. In either case, the design of the Cinch is such that the camera stays against the body and safely swiveled away from the body so that there is no danger of accidental lens release.


Sam
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If I don't get the shots I want with the gear I have, the only optics I need to examine is the mirror on the bathroom wall. The root cause will be there.

  
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Lastblackdog
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Feb 26, 2014 02:00 |  #89

Scrumhalf wrote in post #16718007 (external link)
One end of the strap attaches to the left strap lug of the camera (looking from the back). The other end attaches to the tripod foot of the lens if I am using my 100-400L. Otherwise for all smaller lenses including my 70-200 Mk II, the other end attaches to the strap lug of the camera's tripod mount at the bottom. In either case, the design of the Cinch is such that the camera stays against the body and safely swiveled away from the body so that there is no danger of accidental lens release.

Hi Scrumhalf, if you go back to the original poster, Ryan, you will read that he specifically said that the problem occurred with the 5D III and 70-200 f2.8. I confirmed that I had a similar experience with the same configuration.

In fact I also carry a 60D with various lens and have never had the problem.

gakoenig asked if I had the data to back up my claim. In fact his reasoning was also faulty as he quoted the millions of cameras made by both Canon and Nikon.
We are not talking about Nikon only Canon.
We are not talking about all Canon DSLR's just the 5D III.
We are not talking about all 5D III just the ones with 70-200 f2.8 on them.
We are not talking about all the 5D III with the 70-200 f2.8 on them just the ones carried on a BR strap.
We are not talking about all the 5D III with the 70-200 f2.8 on them carried on a BR strap.
We are only talking about the 5D III with the 70-200 f2.8 carried on a BR strap attached the lens foot.

I have this combination for just one year. In that year I have carried this combination in this configuration no more than twenty times and it failed twice. Does that make it a failure rate of 10% - no! The sample data was much too small a sample. Hence this thread is about warning people about a potential failure so that they can be more careful and/or take secondary tethering precautions.


http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mrmcc1954/ (external link)

  
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gakoenig
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Feb 26, 2014 07:13 |  #90

Lastblackdog wrote in post #16718303 (external link)
I have this combination for just one year. In that year I have carried this combination in this configuration no more than twenty times and it failed twice. Does that make it a failure rate of 10% - no! The sample data was much too small a sample. Hence this thread is about warning people about a potential failure so that they can be more careful and/or take secondary tethering precautions.

My apologies for not recognizing just how specific a configuration your statement was based on. I'm a bit touchy on this; I look at how people have their BR's configured with more safety tethers than a NASA spacewalk and can't help but think that the designers of that strap somehow failed. Than again; I saw one user who's opinion I value highly modify his original Loop with a safety toggle on the buckle and immediately set out to re-design our connection hardware and launched the Loop 2 as soon as I could.

I am very interested to see exactly how the strap/camera interaction works out to make this happen. Both the Cinch 2 and upcoming Loop 3 are extremely different configurations compared to what BR sells; but it is something I would want to look into out of an abundance of caution.


http://lu.ma (external link), greg@luma-labs.com (external link)

  
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