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Thread started 16 Feb 2014 (Sunday) 15:18
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Disaster (nearly) today with BlackRapid

 
Lastblackdog
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Feb 27, 2014 10:08 |  #121

Ryan0751 wrote in post #16694197 (external link)
I went out this afternoon with my Canon 5D III and 70-200 F2.8 II to take some Boston shots after the snow storm yesterday.

Since this setup is pretty heavy (5D is gripped, with L bracket), I attached my BR strap to the lens.

I was walking around, and everything was fine, when all of a sudden, somehow, the lens release must have been pushed rubbing up against my side, or my hand, who knows...

The 5D body fell off the 70-200, right onto the wet brick sidewalk. It made the worst sound possible, and some lady had a more horrified look on her face then I did. My screen protector flew off the camera.

Fortunately it landed on it's back. Nothing entered the camera mirror box area that I can see.

Miraculously, the camera still works. But, there is a big crack in the chassis up near the focus point button, and the LCD cover for the info window was damaged as well. I drove directly to the local camera shop, and off to Canon it is going. It looks like damage should be limited to about $250.

Now I can't really truly blame the black rapid, since the strap and mechanism didn't fail. I've been using a black rapid for a couple of years now without a problem... but this is surely something to be careful about!

I thought surely I had just destroyed a $3500 camera...

I have just been re-reading Ryan0751's original comments that started this thread. How incredibly balanced. No blame to any manufacturer whether they be Canon or BR. Just a cautionary tale to his forum buddies.

Thank you Ryan0751. Sometimes after eight pages and 117 responses later it is easy to forget where it all started.


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jtmiv
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Feb 27, 2014 12:03 |  #122

pwm2 wrote in post #16721642 (external link)
No - no strap needs to be tangled around any release button to to manage to bump the button.

No - no strap needs to be tangled around any lens to get a twist between camera and lens.

So wrong + wrong.

If I hold my 5D2 upside down and hold the lens and press the lens release button, then the Camera will almost twist off by own weight.

If I instead hold the 5D2 the correct way and press the release button with a lens with tripod foot mounted, then it's very easy to bump that foot enough to twist off the lens.

So the twist is very easy to manage - try it yourself...

The hardest part is to bump the release button. Some lenses protects it better. Some orientations of the camera will protect it better. But the button is most definitely possible to activate - and that may be enough for the pin to not reengage again.

Some carry methods means the button may face the body. Some carry methods means the button might hit other objects/people when moving around in a crowd.

What is important with BR, is that an upside down camera means the twist is likely happen from the cameras own weight. And the button is more likely to hit the body. But no magic coordination needed. And the same can happen in other situations.

Dear pwm,

Have you ever conceded an argument? You really should learn how to do it because you lost this one.

It's physically impossible to suspend a camera from either the top or right hand side using two points of attachment and get a camera strap around to the lens release button ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE LENS, while simultaneously twisting the lens with sufficent force to remove it from the mount. The weight of the camera and lens guarantees that. You would have to never pay attention to what you are doing AND go through some serious bodily contortions to get the strap to even come close.

When the camera is carried from above the release button faces away from your body at all times. You'd have to be falling down a hill to manage to turn the camera body in a way that would allow something in your pocket or something on your body like a phone in a case, or a belt buckle, to actuate the lens release. For some inexpicable reason that is a fact that only you seem incapable of recognizing?

Yet when you suspend the camera upside down from either the tripod socket or the lens foot by means of a SWIVELING lug it becomes more likely that the camera body can be turned so that the lens release can be accidently actuated. You would still have to tangle the strap around the lens foot AND provide enough torque at the same time to remove the lens from the bayonet mount, but that is at least physically possible.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :D

Give up


EOS Elan, EOS7NE, EOS 40D, EOS1DMK2, Canon 15-85 IS EF-S, Canon 28-80 USM, Canon 28-105f3.5/4.5 USM, Canon 70-210f3.5/4.5 USM, Canon 70-300f4.5/5.6 IS USM, Tamron 19-35f3.5/4.5, Tokina 80-400 ATX 11, Sigma 150-500 OS HSM, Promaster 7500DX, Benro A3580F

  
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pwm2
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Feb 27, 2014 12:41 |  #123

jtmiv wrote in post #16721927 (external link)
Dear pwm,

Have you ever conceded an argument? You really should learn how to do it because you lost this one.

It's physically impossible to suspend a camera from either the top or right hand side using two points of attachment and get a camera strap around to the lens release button ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE LENS, while simultaneously twisting the lens with sufficent force to remove it from the mount.

Let's read a bit slower.

The strap isn't taking any path past the button. The debate isn't that the strap presses the button. Oops. So why would the strap then need to take any magic pathnear the lens release button?

The OP has been talking about the button pressing against his hip.

And next thing - you don't need to use any strap to twist any lens. Haven't you tested yourself? With a suitable lens attached to my camera, I can grab the lens and hold the kit horisontally with the camera upside down - so the camera tripod hole straight up - and activate the lens release button. And no need for any strap to twist anywhere. The center of gravity of the camera is not centered around the lens mount, so the camera itself issues a twist. Still no need for any strap making any magic paths.

The weight of the camera and lens guarantees that. You would have to never pay attention to what you are doing AND go through some serious bodily contortions to get the strap to even come close.

Let's do random number of bodily contortions - it's irrelevant because I haven't tried to debate any strap comming close to any release button.

When the camera is carried from above the release button faces away from your body at all times. You'd have to be falling down a hill to manage to turn the camera body in a way that would allow something in your pocket or something on your body like a phone in a case, or a belt buckle, to actuate the lens release. For some inexpicable reason that is a fact that only you seem incapable of recognizing?

Now read what I wrote again. Then read slower. Then you'll slowly notice that I haven't said something different. I say "oranges are nice" and you respond with "but you are wrong - everyone knows lemon is sour".

Yet when you suspend the camera upside down from either the tripod socket or the lens foot by means of a SWIVELING lug it becomes more likely that the camera body can be turned so that the lens release can be accidently actuated. You would still have to tangle the strap around the lens foot AND provide enough torque at the same time to remove the lens from the bayonet mount, but that is at least physically possible.

Correct. Having the camera hanging upside down represents a problem here. But (!) the problem does not come from any strap making any magic twists around any release buttons. And it does not require the strap to perform any twists either. That was what I said. But quite obviously not what you decided to read.

I thought I had made a summary that made it obvious - I did end my post with:

What is important with BR, is that an upside down camera means the twist is likely happen from the cameras own weight. And the button is more likely to hit the body. But no magic coordination needed. And the same can happen in other situations.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :D

Read slower, my friend. :cool:

Give up

Why? You are agreeing with me even when you write your text as if I claimed something completely different.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
Speedlite 420EZ | Speedlite 580EX | EF 1.4x II | EF 2x II

  
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gakoenig
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Feb 27, 2014 13:19 |  #124

Looking at the MkIII, that lens release button is kinda flipping big, isn't it?


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digital ­ paradise
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Feb 27, 2014 15:01 |  #125

gakoenig wrote in post #16722085 (external link)
Looking at the MkIII, that lens release button is kinda flipping big, isn't it?

I just looked at both my 7D and 5D3. Same so it must be a standard size. There is resistance to push it in and at the end there is almost like a click so you need a bit more to finish it. Hanging upside down it is against the body so something might be able to get in there or it somehow bumps on something. The typical set up when upside down - the tripod collar foot is at 12:00 noon and the release is at 9:00 AM against the body.

I turned the foot so it lines up with the release. Now the button has some protection and is at 12:00 noon and away from the body. Typically the lens points backwards and it makes it a bit of a awkward 180 degree flip bringing it up. However if orientate the lens forward it is not too bad. When birding I often place the foot to the left and place my thumb in between it and the lens. Just feels more secure. Not sure if that straps will be in the way after a long day.


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digital ­ paradise
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Feb 27, 2014 15:06 |  #126

Note: "Now the button has some protection and is at 12:00 noon and away from the body. Typically the lens points backwards and it makes it a bit of a awkward 180 degree flip bringing it up".

The flash would be in the way. Pointing the lens forward puts the lens outside but now is subject to getting bumped. What is the answer.


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Denny ­ G
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Feb 27, 2014 16:11 as a reply to  @ digital paradise's post |  #127

I knew I should have just stayed out of this, but no I wanted to say:

Human error.

Like it or not there is just no other way this could have happened.

Human error.

BlackRapid was dragged into this to cover up "Human Error". You could have said the CF card was to blame but no you had to blame the strap.

Human error.

I just checked with my five year old grand daughter and she agrees.
Bad spelling and all.

Human error. Call it operator error if you want. The lens was not connected to the camera in the manner to which it should have been.

Human error.

Case closed.




  
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pwm2
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Feb 27, 2014 16:32 |  #128

Are you working for Black Rapid?

Your post seem to indicate a strong need to defend Black Rapid, even if the original post didn't specifically blame the BR strap.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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Denny ­ G
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Feb 27, 2014 16:52 as a reply to  @ pwm2's post |  #129

Sorry pw but the case is closed.




  
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gakoenig
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Feb 27, 2014 18:53 |  #130

I knew I should have just stayed out of this, but no I wanted to say:

Human error.

Umm, no.

Human error would be a valid argument if the system failed in a predictable, preventable way that the user was either made aware of or was blatantly obvious.

What seems to be the case here is a sort of unpredictable interaction between two products that is non-obvious during normal use.

I've got as much of a case to hate on BR as anyone here, but it isn't even really their fault. With so many cameras and so many different configurations of each of those cameras possible (lenses, flashes, grips, etc...), it is impossible to test every permutation. Adding to that is the fact that this is an intermittent situation that nobody has been able to even properly document - I've yet to see precisely how the BR strap can get into a position to hit this button, nor the movements required during use to produce it.

Now, if BR is made aware of the fact that 5D MkIIIs with the 70-200 glass have a high probability of failure, and BR does nothing to make their users aware of the condition and educates them about how to mitigate it (even if it requires buying their tether kit), that would be on BR. I've yet to see any evidence that they know this is a problem however.

User error is a problem only if you make the user aware. It isn't on the customer to predict every possible wacky case.


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UserM4
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Feb 27, 2014 22:21 |  #131

How anyone could blame a strap company when their camera body released from the lens and dropped to the floor, in which the strap was still attached to the lens, is beyond me. You can argue that BR knew about the problem hence the availability of an auxiliary tether. But you can also argue that BR simply sell tethers as a precautionary measure because there's a demand for them. They may not feel that it's necessary hence not including it with their strap. I don't know how often this sort of incident occurs, but I'm sure that we can all agree that it's a fluke accident. Does a company have to take blame for an accident in which their attachment did not fail? And as many have said, if anything is to blame, it's Canon's own release button. And even though it requires depressing while twisting, a strap attached to the lens and the torque of an oblong and off center camera body can detach them. I say that it's user error. Common sense would dictate that attaching the strap to the lens instead of the body would make it more prone to accidental detachment. The protrusions on the body acts as a lever. Imagine the head of a bolt. If a bolt was screwed through a piece of lumber and you tried to use a wrench and twist it out from the threaded side, you would have a very difficult side. Twist it on the head and it's much easier. And if the user still insists, then an auxiliary tether should be used. I don't blame BR. It's such an unusual occurrence that although we all now have seen an example, many of us will still continue to use one attachment at the lens just for convenience sake.

BTW, OP/Tech or go home!


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Ryan0751
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Feb 28, 2014 13:59 |  #132

The camera shop called me an my camera needs an additional $85 worth of work.

Oh well. What can you do?

Here's hoping it comes back in excellent condition.


Canon 5D III, Fuji X100s, Sigma 15mm (Fisheye), 16-35 F2.8 L II, 24-70 F2.8 L II, 70-200 F2.8 IS II L, 100 2.8 Macro L, 1.4X TC, 3 x 600 EX-RT, ST-E3, Nodal Ninja Ultimate M2 with EZ Leveler
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Nathan
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Feb 28, 2014 14:46 |  #133

Ryan - Glad it's not costing you an arm and a leg to make the repair. Funny thing is... costs about as much as my BlackRapid! :lol:

Wading through all of the nonsense in this thread, I do appreciate the insight in possibly needing to tether my camera.

One thing for certain, I'm going to make sure that the lens and mounted and locked onto the body. That's one thing that hasn't been mentioned, unless I missed it. Seems there is an assumption that the lens war properly seated into the mount and locked in the first place. Now that would be user error.


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Ryan0751
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Feb 28, 2014 14:50 |  #134

Nathan wrote in post #16724806 (external link)
Ryan - Glad it's not costing you an arm and a leg to make the repair. Funny thing is... costs about as much as my BlackRapid! :lol:

Wading through all of the nonsense in this thread, I do appreciate the insight in possibly needing to tether my camera.

One thing for certain, I'm going to make sure that the lens and mounted and locked onto the body. That's one thing that hasn't been mentioned, unless I missed it. Seems there is an assumption that the lens war properly seated into the mount and locked in the first place. Now that would be user error.

Well the total repair is $335.

Yes, the lens was definitely mounted on the body when I went out. I didn't do any lens swapping that day.


Canon 5D III, Fuji X100s, Sigma 15mm (Fisheye), 16-35 F2.8 L II, 24-70 F2.8 L II, 70-200 F2.8 IS II L, 100 2.8 Macro L, 1.4X TC, 3 x 600 EX-RT, ST-E3, Nodal Ninja Ultimate M2 with EZ Leveler
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ten31
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Feb 28, 2014 15:25 |  #135

gakoenig wrote in post #16720869 (external link)
Their connector system has had, at best, mixed reviews. Their original system was so bad that my business partner and I started a company; we saw promise in the sling concept (which BR didn't invent), but also realized that their first-round attempt was simply awful. Google Black Rapid Failure and you get lots of hits.

Just look at this forum; every thread about BR, one sees customers cooking up all sorts of tethers to have more confidence in the system. Now, as a product designer, I can look at that one of two ways:

The Proper Way: Holy **** - I clearly need to do a better job of designing something that is both effective and works in a sensible enough way that people will look at it and have confidence!

The Cynical Way: Holy **** - people have little confidence in my work and they are cooking up safety solutions... Why don't we just factory produce those hacks and sell $1.50 of Chinese made parts for $22.99?

Honestly, at this point for BR, changing their connection system to something more confidence inspiring would be logistically difficult. They've invested in lots of tooling. They have a simply massive supply chain of internal, distributor and retail inventory. They've built something like a dozen different strap configurations around it. They would need to re-shoot every product photo and video. Most importantly; it would be a tacit admission to tens of thousands of current BR owners that the thing they are relying on might not be the most secure solution.

The path of making a $22 tether kit or selling a $0.25 chunk of plastic for $10 instead of re-engineering your absolute core components has a much stronger business case behind it.

I would safety tether any strap. Yours included.


Canon EOS 6D | 24-105mm f/4 IS USM | 85mm f/1.8 | 430EX II | Mefoto Roadtrip | RC6 remote

  
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Disaster (nearly) today with BlackRapid
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