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Thread started 04 Mar 2014 (Tuesday) 02:53
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Do you think Canon will respond to the Nikon D800?

 
ERJL
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Mar 05, 2014 09:36 |  #61
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Mjkxxl wrote in post #16734370 (external link)
Just finished reading this article. They still haven't addressed the elephant in the room that is their antiquated semiconductor manufacturing process. I mean they can say they want:

"With unlimited resolution, unlimited sensitivity and unlimited dynamic range you can take photos of anything that exists on this earth. That's our ultimate goal."

However this is not going to be possible with their current manufacturing process. I think this interview points to the fears that most of us still photographers are concerned with, which is that Canon wishes to be a more jack-of-all-trades/video manufacturers instead of working with stills.

Will be interesting to see what Canon does. Given their commercial printing business and such they can be slow to adapt and be financially solid. The question is how long can they remain stagnant before they are forced to step up?

Yeah buttttt....their one of the few companies making money...its always the bottom line. They must think they are going in the right direction if the books are in the black.

Surely, it would be nice to see some newer sensors, but the dual pixel design is kinda neat. http://www.usa.canon.c​om …mer/standard_di​splay/daf/ (external link)
Despite the advert blurb, it is obviously intended for movies rather than live view stills. Again, Canon is leaning towards the video side of DSLR ing.

ps: They can make it all right with me if they release the mkii version of the 100-400L isbefore I buy a 70-300L is. Oh, and the price shouldn't go up;)


-ERJL

  
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Kolor-Pikker
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Mar 05, 2014 09:48 |  #62

Hogloff wrote in post #16735917 (external link)
There I corrected your statement.

See my previous statement about people getting comfortable with new technology as fast as it takes to read a press release.

8-10 years ago no one even dreamed of shooting cameras the way people do now, never mind even earlier than that. It's still a marvel of engineering no matter how you slice it. I'm not talking about one sensor being slightly better looking, I'm talking about being able to shoot images it was physically impossible take before. Of course, you could shoot at ISO3200 10 years ago, just no one would want to look at said images, while any competent modern DSLR now looks glassy clean at most common print sizes.


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I acquired an expensive camera so I can hang out in forums, annoy wedding photographers during formals and look down on P&S users... all the while telling people it's the photographer, not the camera.

  
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Hogloff
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Mar 05, 2014 10:00 |  #63
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ERJL wrote in post #16736061 (external link)
Yeah buttttt....their one of the few companies making money...its always the bottom line. They must think they are going in the right direction if the books are in the black.

Lately, last couple years, their revenue and profits have been heading in the wrong direction. Their forecast for this year is more the same, losing revenue and profits. Does not matter if they have better numbers than Sony...it's the Canon shareholders that are concerned about Canon, not Sony.




  
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Hogloff
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Mar 05, 2014 10:05 |  #64
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Kolor-Pikker wrote in post #16736088 (external link)
See my previous statement about people getting comfortable with new technology as fast as it takes to read a press release.

8-10 years ago no one even dreamed of shooting cameras the way people do now, never mind even earlier than that. It's still a marvel of engineering no matter how you slice it. I'm not talking about one sensor being slightly better looking, I'm talking about being able to shoot images it was physically impossible take before. Of course, you could shoot at ISO3200 10 years ago, just no one would want to look at said images, while any competent modern DSLR now looks glassy clean at most common print sizes.

True, but the technology is available just not incorprated into Canon cameras. That is the crux of it. Sure, I can take great landscape photos with my existing gear and do...but that does not mean a newer sensor would not provide even better prints in more varied conditions. Nothing wrong with wanting to improve you photos and one of the ways of doing this is with technology that allows for shooting in more situations under which your existing gear did not produce so well. I know my own limitations and my gear limitations and shooting under challenging lighting conditions results in going through hoops ( GND, multipler merges in post etc... ) which a new sensor would reduce. I'm all for reducing the hoops we have to go through because of limitations of gear and would rather focus on my photography vision and not how to get around the technicalities.




  
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Kolor-Pikker
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Mar 05, 2014 10:37 |  #65

Hogloff wrote in post #16736143 (external link)
True, but the technology is available just not incorprated into Canon cameras. That is the crux of it. Sure, I can take great landscape photos with my existing gear and do...but that does not mean a newer sensor would not provide even better prints in more varied conditions.

There isn't really a "newer sensor" available per say though, because since the release of the 1Dx/5D3/D4/D800 2 years ago, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony and other companies are all still mostly using the same sensors that existed at that time.
The a7/a7r are the A99 and D800 sensors in a compact body, the Nikon Df uses a D4 sensor variant, Oly still uses the same 18mp sensor, Fuji's X-T1 is the same 16mp X-trans sensor as before, and so on. So every sensor that was advanced then is still advanced now.

Of course you also need to take into account the whole picture, as an ISO100 tripod camera, the 1Dx leaves much to be desired, but most people who own one don't use it as such. Even if it had a 36mp 14-stop sensor, why would you really want it to? You're shooting hundreds of images at high ISO, so all it would lead to is bloated file sizes of sharpness and DR that couldn't have been resolved anyway. For it's intended use the 1Dx has one of the most advanced sensors to date.

The a7R is the complete opposite of that, it's rather slow but also small, light, good manual focus aids, and has a great sensor; all of which end up making it a fairly good landscape camera that you can take on extended treks. For it's intended use the A7r has one of the most advanced sensors to date

This dilemma only matters to anyone who can't afford to own two cameras.


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I acquired an expensive camera so I can hang out in forums, annoy wedding photographers during formals and look down on P&S users... all the while telling people it's the photographer, not the camera.

  
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kdrk888
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Mar 05, 2014 10:40 |  #66

Hogloff wrote in post #16735755 (external link)
really, we just like new toys. I happen to know how to get a great landscape photo out of my existing gear...that is precisely why I could use a better sensor. I have to go through hoops today to deal with high dynamic range scenes, using GND filters and merging in post, spending a lot of time on the computer. If a technology exists that eliminates much of this hassle, I would gladly take that new "toy".

People rave about the 5d3 and it's AF...but isn't that just a new toy and the 5d2 was used very successfully by many before the 5d3 was introduced? Oh...and before that the 5d was used successfully.

Exactly. Here is what I said in a different forum:

"Some people are getting tired of seeing Canon play around with essentially the same sensors in most of their offerings in the last several years, both in the FF line and ASP-C line, with a few exceptions. After seeing what the Sony sensors can do in term of low ISO DR, it's natural for some people to want sensors like that in new Canon bodies for THEIR usage.Those people are not seeing signs that Canon will have similar sensors in the near future so they are frustrated. Nothing wrong with that. I just sold some of my Canon stuff and ordered a Nikon D610 and two lenses just for that particular reason. I am keeping the 5DIII, 24-70II, 85L II, 100mm L, 70-200II though.

Maybe Canon will pull a rabbit out of the hat. I am all for it."

See my signature, I got new toys.:D


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archer1960
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Mar 05, 2014 10:54 |  #67

gjl711 wrote in post #16735903 (external link)
And there lies the issue. For me, high ISO is near useless especially at work where all my photography is product and ISO 100 is as high as I go. Once not so long ago Canon offered a body for each style. Need high ISO, high frame rate, sports shooter, Canon had that. Need something for studio work, product, landscape, architecture, macro, portrait, Canon had that as well. But they now seem to have gone all in with the sports shooter only and let the other 1/2 of the market slip away. Their model seems to be working as they still maintain a market lead, but as one who has invested in glass and does zero sports, it's disappointing.

It's not just sports. Wildlife, macro and astro all benefit significantly from cleaner high ISOs. The frame rate most only helps sports and birds, though.


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gnome ­ chompski
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Mar 05, 2014 15:35 |  #68

When I read these threads, I get the feeling that those pro-Nikon/Sony wont rest until us Canon users admit the inferiority of our gear. Isnt high dynamic range just as valid as low noise at higher ISO's? Each has its place in a photographers arsenal.

Disclosure: I shoot a 6D! If I were looking for the absolute highest DR available I would have acquired a D800 or an A7R!! I enjoy using ISO 5000 more than seeking ultimate DR, so my 6D works and I am happy!!! I am totally ok that Nikon and Sony have made advancements in the sensor department. Im ok that I have only 1 cross AF point. Im ok that I dont have dual card slots. That doesnt make my camera bad. Its bad when it can no longer provide me with enjoyment, or cannot keep up with the work I do. In the long run, us consumers benefit from all these technological advancements, and if one company lags too far behind, us consumers can let them know via our wallets


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kin2son
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Mar 05, 2014 15:53 |  #69
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gnome chompski wrote in post #16736968 (external link)
When I read these threads, I get the feeling that those pro-Nikon/Sony wont rest until us Canon users admit the inferiority of our gear. Isnt high dynamic range just as valid as low noise at higher ISO's? Each has its place in a photographers arsenal.

Well said.

Different people has different needs and shoot different things.

Whilst DR is nice to have, it doesn't do any good to me as I hardly ever shoot landscape @ ISO 100. Therefore the extra DR means nothing to me.

If you are an avid/pro landscape photographer who feels Canon sensor is holding you back, switch to Nikon by all means.

Each and every single camera has its pros and cons, just pick the best tool for your job. Simple as that. Such is reality....


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brettjrob
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Mar 05, 2014 16:04 |  #70

gnome chompski wrote in post #16736968 (external link)
When I read these threads, I get the feeling that those pro-Nikon/Sony wont rest until us Canon users admit the inferiority of our gear. Isnt high dynamic range just as valid as low noise at higher ISO's? Each has its place in a photographers arsenal.

Yes, I think that's correct. They're both important, but for some types of photography one is far more important than the other.

However, the mistake some are making is the implication that it's a clear-cut, even choice between DR (Sony) and high ISO (Canon). What often gets left out here is that the Canon advantage at high ISO is generally quite small, and when you consider that Canon sensors generally have fewer MP these days it's even more debatable. If you compare the D800 vs. 5D3, or the D600 vs. 6D, seeing the resolution-normalized Canon noise advantage at ISO 6400-12800 requires serious pixel-peeping.

The Sony DR advantage at low ISO, however, is plain as day. In fact, it's downright shocking when a Canon user plays with an Exmor RAW file for the first time (I know from experience).


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gnome ­ chompski
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Mar 05, 2014 16:13 |  #71

Maybe, but it still sounds like you are telling me my gear is inferior (not trying to call you out specifically). Regardless of tech superiority on paper, its inferior only when it can no longer deliver what I need it to deliver for the images I shoot. Only I can determine that, not dynamic range or ISO noise. If it takes 4 images at various exposures to get me an image that another camera could knock out in 1, its still perfectly fine according to the only requirement that needs to be met: My own. Once I start getting sick of the process, then I will move on.


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gjl711
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Mar 05, 2014 16:58 |  #72

I don't see it as an effort to prove anyone right or wrong. It's just that not so long ago Canon was the leader in both ISO performance and in resolution/DR. Others worked hard to keep up and eventually surpassed Canon at least on the ISO/DR front causing a good portion of the Canon shooters to even start considering the switch, something not even in the cards a few years back.

I think of it this way, 5D comes out, Canon smokes the competition. No one is even in the game. Others catch up and the 5DII comes out and Canon again has a product clearly ahead of the others. But they catch up and surpass Canon in several key areas. The 5DIII comes out and 1/2 of the Canon shooters are satisfied that Canon has addressed their issue and the other 1/2 are left saying WTF, its a 5DII with a fancy AF. We are still at minimum a year away from a 5DIV, maybe two and I'm sure that the others are not sitting still waiting for Canon's response.

I've often thought that the reason the 7DII is so late is because others have released a camera that would make the 7DII look downright lame causing Canon to head back to the drawing board.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 05, 2014 17:31 |  #73

gnome chompski wrote in post #16736968 (external link)
When I read these threads, I get the feeling that those pro-Nikon/Sony wont rest until us Canon users admit the inferiority of our gear. Isnt high dynamic range just as valid as low noise at higher ISO's? Each has its place in a photographers arsenal.

Ah, I think you are making the mistake of personalizing the subject.

Look, I have a 5D III. Fantastic camera. It has a slightly inferior sensor to your 6D. ;) I can work around its limitations - and I even take a measure of pleasure doing so - but I still want Canon to make substantial sensor imporovements.

I am not pro-Nikon or else I'd own one. I am not pro-Sony (although I own two :lol: ), because they just don't have a total systematic answer or long history that Canon and Nikon have. In reality I'm very much a Canon fan, but that doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with their state of the art. It doesn't mean I'm not going to express my desire for better products. :)


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gnome ­ chompski
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Mar 05, 2014 17:37 |  #74

No, I get that. Im just observing. It seems that it always boils down to someone telling someone else that a sensor with more dynamic range is better, even though the person suggesting that is not the one using it. Like me telling you to drive a Honda because I drive a Honda and I find them better than Toyota.


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brettjrob
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Mar 05, 2014 17:46 |  #75

gnome chompski wrote in post #16737221 (external link)
No, I get that. Im just observing. It seems that it always boils down to someone telling someone else that a sensor with more dynamic range is better, even though the person suggesting that is not the one using it. Like me telling you to drive a Honda because I drive a Honda and I find them better than Toyota.

I think you'll find that most of the contingent who harps on DR, myself included, are disappointed former Canon shooters. I'm not just a Nikon troll who signed up here to get my jollies laughing at the other side. I bought a 6D last year and gradually realized I wouldn't be happy with the investment for years to come, so I had to switch. Switching was a tedious process, and I was genuinely dismayed because there are many things I like better about Canon. Their ergonomics are better, their customer service and treatment of customers has been better in recent years, and their lens selection is just a bit better and more diverse on the whole. I complain because I wish Canon had a sensor in the same low ISO ballpark as its competitors; I'd quite possibly switch back if they did. (The A7/A7r with an adapter is a good substitute for now, and honestly an excellent one for pure landscapers, but I found it easier just to go with Nikon for my particular use case).

If you really want to get into motivations, perhaps it's that we wish more Canon users would rise up and demand change (to be overdramatic about it) so that we could put this all behind us.


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