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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 07 Mar 2014 (Friday) 06:23
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Is Canon losing the War ?

 
Hogloff
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Mar 09, 2014 16:59 |  #76
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stpix wrote in post #16745677 (external link)
What if they gave a war and nobody came?

You are dating yourself buddy. Had that black light poster in my basement in the early 70's.




  
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pwm2
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Mar 09, 2014 17:06 |  #77

Hogloff wrote in post #16746135 (external link)
Nope...smart innovative devices that are killing the low end camera markets.

Something obviously that caught Canon and Nikon off guard as they both had big revenue drops this last year. Their low end market just got taken out.

Losing revenues isn't the same as being caught off-guard.

Knowing that customers will buy less low-end P&S cameras isn't enough to be able to know a suitable work-around. Is there even a work-around? In some situations, a manufacturer will just have to accept that the market is shrinking.


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Hogloff
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Mar 09, 2014 17:06 |  #78
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cdifoto wrote in post #16746143 (external link)
What a weird post to make. If you had purely photographic desires, you wouldn't care whether anyone innovated or not because there is NOTHING stopping anyone from making AMAZING images with what's on the market right now.

You have GAS. It's okay to admit it but let's call it what it is.

Not really. I shoot fine art landscape images and have a bunch of Canon lenses. The A7R is a great innovative camera for me that allows me to keep my gear and still benefit with the fabulous Sony sensor.

Canon has ignored this niche market ( landscape ) with their last releases of cameras. They are aiming at the herd...where most of the money is made. That is fine if I owned Canon stock, but I don't. Just appreciate the likes of Sony, Fuji etc... Come in and address the niche markets.

Big Mac versus gourmet burgers...your choice.




  
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Hogloff
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Mar 09, 2014 17:08 |  #79
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pwm2 wrote in post #16746161 (external link)
Losing revenues isn't the same as being caught off-guard.

Knowing that customers will buy less low-end P&S cameras isn't enough to be able to know a suitable work-around. Is there even a work-around? In some situations, a manufacturer will just have to accept that the market is shrinking.

Yes, but Canon has zero exposure to this new market. They just got their P&S revenue taken away.




  
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pwm2
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Mar 09, 2014 17:15 |  #80

Hogloff wrote in post #16746165 (external link)
Yes, but Canon has zero exposure to this new market. They just got their P&S revenue taken away.

So what? What exactly can the camera manufacturers do to protect their P&S market shares? They can fight with each other, but will still fight about a smaller and smaller cake.

Next thing - mirrorless cameras can't be used to protect the P&S market. yes, mirrorless cameras will be extremely important in the future. But they aren't extremely important right now. It's more than enough to step in a year from now. The important thing is that when Canon decides to really step into the mirrorless market, they need to do it with both one or more great cameras, and a number of lenses - both great lenses and reasonably cheap lenses.

The EOS M was basically an experiment. A low-investment try just to get some feeling for the market. The next time we see Canon in the mirrorless market, I think we will see a much more ambitious attack intended to actually grab market shares as the mirrorless cake starts to grow.


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Hogloff
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Mar 09, 2014 17:41 |  #81
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pwm2 wrote in post #16746184 (external link)
So what? What exactly can the camera manufacturers do to protect their P&S market shares? They can fight with each other, but will still fight about a smaller and smaller cake.

Next thing - mirrorless cameras can't be used to protect the P&S market. yes, mirrorless cameras will be extremely important in the future. But they aren't extremely important right now. It's more than enough to step in a year from now. The important thing is that when Canon decides to really step into the mirrorless market, they need to do it with both one or more great cameras, and a number of lenses - both great lenses and reasonably cheap lenses.

The EOS M was basically an experiment. A low-investment try just to get some feeling for the market. The next time we see Canon in the mirrorless market, I think we will see a much more ambitious attack intended to actually grab market shares as the mirrorless cake starts to grow.

They could have teamed up with a phone manufacturer to provide "canon inside" sort of like intel did with computer manufactures. Canon chose to fully neglect the phone camera market and in doing so, they got their p&s market taken out. Now, they are basically neglecting the mirrorless market... Time will tell what the consequences of this will be.




  
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pwm2
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Mar 09, 2014 17:48 |  #82

But why should they team up with a phone manufacturer?

Would that really make any money? The camera module in the phones aren't exactly expensive, so there aren't much money per sold unit.

I think Zeiss et al are doing a much better job of making the phone vendors make money than they are actually earning money themselves.

In the end, it really can be quite dangerous to sell out your name by having it plastered over low-end products. The phones might be high-end - for phones. But they are low-end for cameras.

Edit: "and in doing so, they got their p&s market taken out"??? No. The p&s market is dying whatever the camera manufacturers does in bed with any camera manufacturers. When you sell a P&S, you get to keep all the profit. When you sell a camera module to a phone manufacturer, you get a tiny little sum of money. And you still lose your P&S market.


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Submariner
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Mar 09, 2014 18:57 |  #83

pwm2 wrote in post #16746184 (external link)
So what? What exactly can the camera manufacturers do to protect their P&S market shares? They can fight with each other, but will still fight about a smaller and smaller cake.

Next thing - mirrorless cameras can't be used to protect the P&S market. yes, mirrorless cameras will be extremely important in the future. But they aren't extremely important right now. It's more than enough to step in a year from now. The important thing is that when Canon decides to really step into the mirrorless market, they need to do it with both one or more great cameras, and a number of lenses - both great lenses and reasonably cheap lenses.

The EOS M was basically an experiment. A low-investment try just to get some feeling for the market. The next time we see Canon in the mirrorless market, I think we will see a much more ambitious attack intended to actually grab market shares as the mirrorless cake starts to grow.

If I was a stockholder I would not see it like that ....more like a total screw up and abject failure!
No point in playing unless you score points!

Reminds me of an old job I had. Hated the promotion, that division had a great concept product, but endless software failures were crucifying that division.
At a board meeting I was called in and asked my opinion. My answer was
" Simple if we cant make it ourselves subcontact it out! But make sure we tie up those subcontractors legally so they can never hurt us."

11 faces around that board table said it all! :( :( . Might as well of shot myself there and then!
Luckilymthe chairman was ultra bright, and said "do it" " but dont fail"
15 months later, we were the market leader, profit was increased 9 fold.!
We ended up buying the subcontractor and bringing it in house. Just saved us 5 years of grief!

Applying that lesson here; Canon should buy in Sony sensors, in parralell develope something infinitely better, for release in 3 or 4 years. Keep all their customers. ( and learn a lot in the process ;);).


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pwm2
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Mar 09, 2014 19:08 |  #84

Sorry but you are battling a completely different battle here.

I never discussed any use of Sony sensors. I debated that the low-end P&S market is dead. It's just a question of time before it's as dead as the typewriter market. So no reason to throw good money after bad and fight for market shares at the bottom end.

Next thing - neither you nor I knows anything about what progress Canon has with a new sensor. But you debate as if you did know.

One more thing - the stockholders might not want Canon to buy Sony sensors. And the Sony owners might not want Sony to sell sensors to Canon. And Nikon might have demanded an exclusivity paragraph that Sony must not sell sensors to Canon. So arguing that Canon should buy Sony sensors seems so easy but need not actually be easy.


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jt354
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Mar 09, 2014 21:37 |  #85

Man some of these analogies are terrible...may as well add another lol.

Canon is like Toyota, Nikon is like Ford. Canon/Toyota had a competitive advantage in the early 2000s, sold a ton of product that was high-quality for the price. Recently they got a bit lazy and began rehashing products by adding gimmicky new features and performing slight redesigns. Consumers caught on and now the pressure is on Canon to innovate.

Nikon was behind Canon until the release of the D300, D3, and D700. These cameras blew their Canon equivalents out of the water when introduced. The D2HS got the job done (and a 2000 Ford Taurus will get you from A to B), but it took a redesign for Nikon to make a dent in the professional DSLR market. Since then, Nikon/Ford have continued to release products that at least have the appearance of being innovative, whether or not they actually perform better than their Canon/Toyota equivalents.


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Gobeatty
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Mar 09, 2014 21:43 as a reply to  @ jt354's post |  #86

I hardly ever see anything but Canons when I'm out and about. All other brands appear as a clear minority from what I see. An occasional Nikon or Lumix. Not a statement about quality or innovation, just I see Canon as the clear market leader from what people are carrying. No idea about sales figures in the last quarter etc, just reporting what I see everywhere among elementary school parents in northern virginia.


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Mar 10, 2014 00:14 as a reply to  @ Gobeatty's post |  #87

What makes anyone think that Canon cares at all about where their revenue comes from? Canon as a company is definitely doing very well. If all their camera revenue disappeared tomorrow, I'm sure they could care less as long as they had an alternate way to recapture that revenue.


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gjl711
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Mar 10, 2014 07:08 |  #88

kfreels wrote in post #16747086 (external link)
What makes anyone think that Canon cares at all about where their revenue comes from? Canon as a company is definitely doing very well. If all their camera revenue disappeared tomorrow, I'm sure they could care less as long as they had an alternate way to recapture that revenue.

Canon might not care but we as investors in their equipment should. Large corporations have a nasty habit of pulling the plug on unprofitable sectors.


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pwm2
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Mar 10, 2014 07:23 |  #89

gjl711 wrote in post #16747418 (external link)
Canon might not care but we as investors in their equipment should. Large corporations have a nasty habit of pulling the plug on unprofitable sectors.

But it is good for you if Canon pulls the plug on low-end P&S cameras since that represent a niche that can't be defended. It's just a question of how much money the companies are willing to lose by fighting for this lost cause.


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Hogloff
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Mar 10, 2014 07:29 |  #90
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pwm2 wrote in post #16746184 (external link)
So what? What exactly can the camera manufacturers do to protect their P&S market shares? They can fight with each other, but will still fight about a smaller and smaller cake.

Next thing - mirrorless cameras can't be used to protect the P&S market. yes, mirrorless cameras will be extremely important in the future. But they aren't extremely important right now. It's more than enough to step in a year from now. The important thing is that when Canon decides to really step into the mirrorless market, they need to do it with both one or more great cameras, and a number of lenses - both great lenses and reasonably cheap lenses.

The EOS M was basically an experiment. A low-investment try just to get some feeling for the market. The next time we see Canon in the mirrorless market, I think we will see a much more ambitious attack intended to actually grab market shares as the mirrorless cake starts to grow.

The P&S market was doomed as soon as the phones got a camera. Canon could do squat about that. What Canon could do is get involved into the phone market by teaming up with a phone provider integrating their camera technologies into phone. That way their P&S revenue would be offset. Staying with DSLR's when the world is changing around you can be a dangerous game.

Nice Canon experiments on their loyal customers and then just drops the experiment leaving the customers holding a dead lemon.




  
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