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Thread started 05 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 22:13
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My 6D is a lot better sports camera than my 7d

 
kfreels
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Mar 10, 2014 00:08 |  #136

speedync wrote in post #16746795 (external link)
Going by that logic, the 5DIII is hopeless at sports photography too. It does a whole 1.5 frame per second more than the 6D, but more than 50% LESS than the 1DX.

Well, your logic maybe. But that isn't what I said. I never said the 6D couldn't shoot sports. I was contesting was the general idea that anticipation is good enough for everything in sports and that fps is largely irrelevant for anyone except for pros and people who aren't good enough to anticipate. Anticipation is a skill used even with high fps and isn't always an adequate substitute for it. And I refuse to be drug down into this bizarre thread like Teamspeed was by people who can't discuss limitations without feeling like their choice in gear is being criticized.


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Mar 10, 2014 03:03 as a reply to  @ kfreels's post |  #137

I remember the old days when I took photos of sports with a camera where the frame rate was dependent on how fast I could flick my thumb to wind one frame on my Canon EF camera.
AF tracking dependent upon how quickly my brain could react and give instructions to my other hand, which was turning the focusing ring on the lens.
Increasing the focal length, what today often is called "zooming in", was dependent upon how fast I could grab the FD 300 mm f/5.6 S.C. in the bag, turn the classic breech-lock ring on the mounted FD 135 mm f/2.5 S.C., get it off the camera, put the 300 mm on and turn that breech-lock ring to get it to stay there.
Then I upgraded to the FDn 70-210 mm f/4, and boy, I could adjust focus and focal length at the same time! Unless I got too confused, that was a marvel.
Not to talk about when I used that same 70-210 mm lens, but got myself the Canon T90 camera behind it. Suddenly I was capable of wasting film at a rate of 4.5 frames/s, or even a tad more if using a trick. Focusing was still manual, of course.

I still got some good sports photos, or so I found out when the film was developed, but they were definitely fewer and longer apart than what I can accomplish with the 1DX combined with he amazing the EF 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS II USM lens.

With this I'm looking back at my own experience while trying to state that you can do sports with anything, but the success rate will usually be different.
Besides, I find it funnier to take crappy photos with the 1DX than with the 400D I also have, somewhere.


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Mornnb
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Mar 10, 2014 04:01 |  #138

speedync wrote in post #16746795 (external link)
Going by that logic, the 5DIII is hopeless at sports photography too. It does a whole 1.5 frame per second more than the 6D, but more than 50% LESS than the 1DX.

That's correct. Sports is a job for the 7D or 1DX.

monkey44 wrote in post #16746619 (external link)
If you do not understand your subject - and therefore anticipate its movements - the action or behavior, even 25 fps will not help much. Not trying to berate anyone here, but it really helps a lot if you study the subject you want to shoot a little bit before you shoot it.

Yeah... no. With sports you can anticipate all you like, but your fingers move too slow. You still need to anticipate even with 8FPS to 14FPS, you hold down when you know the right moment is about to begin. But sport is so fast a split second makes a big difference to the result you get. The other thing to note is there is a fundamental unpredictability to sports.
In rugby for example which is what I mainly shoot, a hell of a lot happens in one second. People smash into each other at great speed, a split second is the difference between seeing that painful expression as they smash into each other and being on the ground.

Such fast moving chaos makes high FPS extremely useful. Take a look at these videos and think about how you would go about photographing it. The tries and the hard hits are the moments that make a good shot.
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=z8RQ8KWpXnk (external link)
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=ab8WmB1viYA (external link)
Note all the pros shooting this sport, some of them you will see in the above video, will use a 1DX and hold down on the shutter button for a good 2-3 seconds once they see a major moment about to happen.
If you attend one of the games, you will notice the photographers will run up and down the field with the players and try to predict where they need to be. If you know the game well you can anticipate where you need to be and the moment you want to capture, but you simply can not anticipate a tenth of a second.


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Mar 10, 2014 06:46 |  #139

kfreels wrote in post #16747075 (external link)
Well, your logic maybe. But that isn't what I said. I never said the 6D couldn't shoot sports. I was contesting was the general idea that anticipation is good enough for everything in sports and that fps is largely irrelevant for anyone except for pros and people who aren't good enough to anticipate. Anticipation is a skill used even with high fps and isn't always an adequate substitute for it. And I refuse to be drug down into this bizarre thread like Teamspeed was by people who can't discuss limitations without feeling like their choice in gear is being criticized.

Interestingly enough, those that don't seem to shoot sports on a regular basis are the ones defending their choice in camera and pointing out theory over how to use the 6D for any sports. However those that actually shoot sports acknowledge the shortcomings and aren't so persnickety.

Also, you are participating in this thread, so you have already been drugged into it. ;) The only way out is to unsubscribe, but then you might be curious to see what new train track upon which this wreck is riding. :lol:

Regarding FPS, I agree. I anticipate many of my shots, but there are times where unexpected activities happen, fights break out, 2 players collide and that one shot of 8 has the best look of sweat and spit flying off each player with their skin shoved off to one side, etc. Burst speeds are also good when you want to create a nice action overlay. 4 or 5 fps just isn't enough and is one of the reasons I want to move back to the 1D series over even the 5D3. Obviously any sport has periods of predictability, but then also times where unexpected, abnormal activity takes place, and this is where the high FPS burst shooter will prevail over the anticipatory single shooter or those that get the action every .25 of a second.

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Mornnb
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Mar 10, 2014 08:01 |  #140

Here are some of my rugby shots, taken with the 7D and the 200mm 2.8.

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7390/8728531882_72f07acb44_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mornnb/87285318​82/  (external link)
NRL Roosters vs Panthers _MG_9198 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8549/8707427802_54ee5727fd_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mornnb/87074278​02/  (external link)
_MG_6350.jpg (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr

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Mornnb
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Mar 10, 2014 08:08 |  #141

And here is an example of how fast this game is, a sequence taken at 8 FPS on the 7D. Note, all this happens in a third of a second. The 1DX would provide 5 shots in this time span, and hence more of a chance for a good shot.

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8096/8550275147_b3e4b79c1c_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mornnb/85502751​47/  (external link)
NRL Knights vs West Tigers _MG_4188 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/8550278753_cfc6a7828d_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mornnb/85502787​53/  (external link)
NRL Knights vs West Tigers _MG_4189 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8505/8550283333_3f7cf0b5f0_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/mornnb/85502833​33/  (external link)
NRL Knights vs West Tigers _MG_4190 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr

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Mar 10, 2014 08:24 |  #142

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16747393 (external link)
Interestingly enough, those that don't seem to shoot sports on a regular basis are the ones defending their choice in camera and pointing out theory over how to use the 6D for any sports. However those that actually shoot sports acknowledge the shortcomings and aren't so persnickety.

Also, you are participating in this thread, so you have already been drugged into it. ;) The only way out is to unsubscribe, but then you might be curious to see what new train track upon which this wreck is riding. :lol:

Regarding FPS, I agree. I anticipate many of my shots, but there are times where unexpected activities happen, fights break out, 2 players collide and that one shot of 8 has the best look of sweat and spit flying off each player with their skin shoved off to one side, etc. Burst speeds are also good when you want to create a nice action overlay. 4 or 5 fps just isn't enough and is one of the reasons I want to move back to the 1D series over even the 5D3. Obviously any sport has periods of predictability, but then also times where unexpected, abnormal activity takes place, and this is where the high FPS burst shooter will prevail over the anticipatory single shooter or those that get the action every .25 of a second.

QUOTED IMAGE

This is a fantastic example of what we're talking about here. I'm assuming this is a series of 8 shots from 1 second of action using a 7D. There are 8 different shots there. At 4fps you would get shots 1,3,5, and 7. You might be able to time this to get shots 2,,6, and 8 instead but you're talking about a 1/8 second difference which is less than the time it takes to realize that the pitcher is starting his pitch and push the button and account for the .05 second shutter lag. Whatever the case, you won't get both 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8. And it's nearly impossible to know in advance exactly which shot you would want.

Teamspeed. I think I"m gonna take your advice and unsubscribe before I get sucked in further.


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Mornnb
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Mar 10, 2014 08:37 |  #143

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16743153 (external link)
Then logically it follows that the same comment applies to the 7D, with even more AF points with all of them being cross-type, a better burst rate, larger buffer, and more pixels on target if you are reach-restricted. All of this equates to higher keeper rate for those out there that consistently shoot sports, week after week. The only negative really is the 7D's 2 stop worse ISO performance, and that is something that has to be worked around.

Listen to TeamSpeed. The 7D is a better choice than even the 5D3 for sports, and the greater reach of APS-C is also incredibly useful.


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Mar 10, 2014 08:40 |  #144

kfreels wrote in post #16747544 (external link)
This is a fantastic example of what we're talking about here. I'm assuming this is a series of 8 shots from 1 second of action using a 7D. There are 8 different shots there. At 4fps you would get shots 1,3,5, and 7. You might be able to time this to get shots 2,,6, and 8 instead but you're talking about a 1/8 second difference which is less than the time it takes to realize that the pitcher is starting his pitch and push the button and account for the .05 second shutter lag. Whatever the case, you won't get both 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8. And it's nearly impossible to know in advance exactly which shot you would want.

Teamspeed. I think I"m gonna take your advice and unsubscribe before I get sucked in further.

This was from a 1D3, but I always lowered its configuration down from 10fps to 7 or 8, just to reduce the wear and tear a bit. Same principle applies though. I wanted to do a batting series too, but could never find the right angle to clear the nets or fences.


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Mar 10, 2014 08:59 |  #145

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16739497 (external link)
Nope, however it will get old, because this very thing got hashed out in the 6D vs 5D3 sports thread too. The same handful of members will come in and point out how the 5D3 offers nothing of additional value over the 6D, for anyone, for anything they would shoot, just like the 6D vs 7D. The 7D received its AF system and software indirectly from the 1D4, and the 5D3 almost exactly from the 1DX, but that is all just overkill for everyone. :)

Whew, boy were you right! Joining kfreels in unsubscribing.


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Mar 10, 2014 09:12 |  #146

Mornnb wrote in post #16747513 (external link)
And here is an example of how fast this game is, a sequence taken at 8 FPS on the 7D. Note, all this happens in a third of a second. The 1DX would provide 5 shots in this time span, and hence more of a chance for a good shot.

here's the deal though: I'm not about to go through all those files, and for a professional shooter, knock yourself out with 14fps or 8 fps. I was purposely shooting slower with my older cameras simply because I dont care to deal with the higher shot count and threshold for keepers much lower. I only care about my kid when it comes to sports, and if I'm only coming home with a few shots, I'de prefer a 6D, just like TS.

I'll take the 2-3 stops better iso and sharpness.

EDIT: this thread started out as a dad of two kids picking out which sports camera was for him, not a sports illustrated shooter looking to squeeze every bit of performance. Us parents can miss 300 shots and be happy with 3. I'de be happy with 3 I really like than 200 low quality noisy mud.


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Mar 10, 2014 10:00 |  #147

Mornnb wrote in post #16747513 (external link)
And here is an example of how fast this game is, a sequence taken at 8 FPS on the 7D. Note, all this happens in a third of a second. The 1DX would provide 5 shots in this time span, and hence more of a chance for a good shot...

I've been to a CANON meetup in SF with the photographer for the 49'ers (American Football) and what I got out of it was that. They do use burst mode at 1DX speeds but at the same breath do use anticipating shots and I've primarily shot motorsport which is a different sport than rugby. I used to blast away with my 1D IIN at 8fps but I got tired of going through the files and became more proficient into anticipating shots.

Bottom line is there is time and place to blast away at 200fps and there are times when timed shots are best for sport. So y'all just get over it, get back on topic, or I'll post Doge again. :D


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Mar 10, 2014 10:06 as a reply to  @ OuttaCtrl's post |  #148

I usually try to anticipate the time to fire, then press the trigger to get a short burst. Not a large number of frames, usually not a full second long. If one picture fails for some reason perhaps the other two-three are good. People may look the wrong way, obstacles may come in between me and target or whatever - there are many reasons why even the best anticipation I can do will fail me, if I rely on a single shot.


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Mar 10, 2014 12:20 |  #149

Charlie wrote in post #16747646 (external link)
EDIT: this thread started out as a dad of two kids picking out which sports camera was for him, not a sports illustrated shooter looking to squeeze every bit of performance. Us parents can miss 300 shots and be happy with 3. I'de be happy with 3 I really like than 200 low quality noisy mud.

No, it didn't start that way, there was no context at all given to the OP, and all you had to look at were what most considered to be up to date gallery photos. Turns out later, we found out it was his kids and his sites hadn't be updated for years...


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Mar 10, 2014 12:56 |  #150

Wow just read through this whole thread. Some good information mixed in here and there. I just wanted to add to the anticipation vs. FPS discussion. I have to agree with those who have stated it takes a little bit of both sometimes.

I've been trying to get a shot similar to this one here (external link) for about 6 years now. Although I've come very close I've never quite gotten it. The reason being is that with a closure rate of well over 500 nautical miles per hour you have to anticipate the crossing to start pressing the shutter button, but to get the exact alignment of the two planes you need a high-FPS. Human reaction times are just not fast enough to solely rely on anticipation.

For some photos, I'm sure this is true for sports photos as well, a 1/100th of a second difference can have a huge impact on the shot's composition.




  
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